How hard is it to find early copper with "original surfaces".

[the_Thing ®]

Specifically, large cents, but any others too. And, when I say original surfaces, I mean sufaces that haven't been cleaned or altered by being in the ground. What would a real patina on a 200 + year old copper coin look like? Examples?

[dean1345]

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Specifically, large cents, but any others too. And, when I say original surfaces, I mean sufaces that haven't been cleaned or altered by being in the ground. What would a real patina on a 200 + year old copper coin look like? Examples?

Actually, it is very easy to. Just be willing to stick to copper in the AG to F-12 range or so. Many (probably most) of those are purely original.

 

It's in the higher grades, such as EF, AU and MS that you find a ridiculous proportion of doctored copper, in and not in slabs.

[the_Thing ®]

What would you say about the surfaces on this wreath cent? When I see coins like this, its makes me wonder why they aren't in a slab.

 

wreath cent

[robec1347]

The reverse looks to be corroded which would prevent it's being slabbed.

[the_Thing ®]

I wonder why only the reverse shows corrosion. The surface looks a bit funny to me.

[michael]

almost fine details

 

damaged obverse with micro porosity

 

and strongly corroded reverse with medium verdigris

 

and it will never slab other than a pcgs genuine holder or a ncs details holder

 

i grade this coin around $2350

 

eye appeal is negative to my minds eye

[the_Thing ®]

You don't think that is a die break as the seller states? I agree with you, it looks more like damage.

[the_Thing ®]

There are several low grade wreath cents on ebay right now. The most I've seen in quite awhile, although I only check about once every month or two.

[Conder101]

That is not a die break on the obv, but there is one on the reverse which he doesn't mention. The reverse does have some light corrosion but I have seen much worse in PCGS and NGC slabs. I don't find the eye appeal to be negative, but it isn't anything special either. It's just neutral.

[BillJones]

It is my opinion that the grading services are especially hard on early copper coins. An early silver coin can be dipped white and even have light hairlines from a cleaning. An early gold coin can have its surfaces chemically stripped so that the color takes on a pail, “white gold” appearance. Yet such coins can make it into AU and even Mint State holders.

 

It seems that if anything at all has been done to a copper coin, into the body bag it goes, UNLESS, you get lucky. I’ve seen some copper coins have had extensive work done them end up in holders.

 

Copper is the most reactive of the three classical coinage metals. It is the most prone to toning, spotting and corrosion. For that reason, almost any well preserved copper coin will have had something done to it along the line, be it brushing with a goat hair brush, oiled or lightly to heavily cleaned. Early copper specialists take this into account, but unqualified grades who are used to handling Morgan dollars can’t make any adjustments. And yes that a swipe at the grading services.

 

Here are some copper coins that I own or once owned that got body bags. I’ve seen much worse examples in slabs from both of the leading grading services.

 

1797 1 over 1 half cent, Cohen 1

 

 

1800 half cent

 

 

1802 half cent, ex Garrett

 

 

1797 S-139 large cent, a low end condtion census piece

 

 

1814 Large cent

 

[RI AL]

Bill Jones,

 

Any one of those coins I would be PROUD to own! Body Bag or not, they are beauties. It would seem to me that any collector with half a brain would see the beauty and merit of those coins...and BB be damned. (These days I guess it's GS instead of BB..."genuine" slab) and though that's a small improvement, there needs to be some middle ground for exceptional coins such as yours so they are not lumped in with the run of the mill BB stuff. How about an SD slab (superb detail) or HQ (high quality) with the "problem" noted on the label? SOMEONE has to print up the slab labels, how difficult would it be to add a few more categories.

 

This vanilla or chocolate slab stuff just doesn't cut it. We need more flavors!

 

RI AL

[Treeman]

I agree, the sevices are extremely tough on early copper. That said, I find it difficult to believe they had a problem with the 1814 cent. That is a VERY NICE coin!

[michael]

bill jones coins look all slabbable to me; in fact premo coins

 

and yes i have seen some horrendous slabbed early copper in ngc and pcgs holders

 

such is the coin game

[BillJones]

I agree, the sevices are extremely tough on early copper. That said, I find it difficult to believe they had a problem with the 1814 cent. That is a VERY NICE coin!

 

Perhaps you see that one in an NGC or PCGS slab. I sold it to a dealer at FUN who figured he could get it into something other than the ANACS holder that contained it.

 

I bought a replacement for the coin in the slab. IMO this coin is better, but my goals are now different so I let this one go.

[AnkurJ]

I am working on a Large cent date set, and have about 20 coins to go. Problem free surface coins are not hard to find, however, you should not bother looking at the sheet/redbook etc when buying them. They will always have a premium because the majority of large cents have some kind of problem. If you are buying late dates (1840-1857), do NOT settle for problem coins as these dates are very plentiful.

 

 

Ankur

[dean1345]

Ankur you have a very nice set of EAC large cents. (thumbs u

[the_Thing ®]

Yea Ankur, excellent set.