Cleaning vs Conservation?

[Jim Beam]

I am very, very confused about what it means to "Do NOT Clean Your Coins" when I read about various techniques written on this site. What differentiates a "Conservation" technique from a "Cleaning" technique? It is my understanding that "cleaning" is/can be harmful to the coin but in the next thread I read about "dipping" (cleaning?) or "soaking in acetone" (conservation?), etc. What can I do or what techniques can be used to improve a coins appearance yet still allow it to be sent in for grading and maintaining the appropriate grade. If a coin has a very small (pin head size) carbon spot, can it be cleaned and graded or is the coin doomed (a 1912 V Nickel - otherwise a definite MS grade coin)? I do not have the means to show a pic so I know this makes answering my questions a bit difficult. I have tried sorting through a ton of writings on this site but I am more confused than ever and am looking for some good suggestions and ideas of what to do and what not to do. Point me to some other threads if you are aware of them. Thanks.

[RareSov]

Cleaning can often = bad cleaning.

 

Wiping, scratching, destroying the surface of the coin

 

Conservation basically means to carefully and skillfully approach the job. No harsh cleaning. Metal is not allowed to be moved.

[RareSov]

Relatively pure silver and gold can be washed in distilled water

 

Dip should only be used very sparingly, people recommend cotton bud, tiny amount, dab it on and wash with distilled straight away.

 

Never clean bronze or copper, at least not like any other metal. For the carbon spot I think the suggestions will be something along the lines of a toothpick and a minute amount of some chemical, possibly organic compound, dabbing at it lightly.

[Jim Beam]

Here is how I am interpreting your reply, for which I "Thank You": You can do whatever you want to a coin. If you do scratch, alter or change the metallic surface (other than making a dull coin look shiny) it is called "Cleaning" or the coin "has been cleaned". If you are lucky or fortunate enough and do not scratch or alter the metallic surface (other than making a dull coin look shiny), whatever you have done is called "Conservation". Have I oversimplified this? How do collectors and third party graders define these two terms?

[RareSov]

That would be termed "improper cleaning", in simple terms you have it, however it is very important to know that you shouldn't clean most coins, and a dull coin looking shiny will not always be the best thing for a coin. Old coins are supposed to look old.

 

Experts clean coins when there is a serious problem, like PVC that will continue to damage the coin and has to come off. In many other cases it might not be the right thing to do. Have a look around, there is a lot of previous posts on this topic

[Smilie Puss]

RareSov:

 

This is the condrum that is posted as: "Altered Surface", The need for a more comprehensive definition? It is also the dilema that Jim Beam is confused about.

 

Every circulated coin that is certified/graded should be labeled "Altered Surface".

 

Why?

 

Because ALL of these coins have had their surfaces altered due to handling and processing in pockets purses, counter tops, cash registers etc. Or any place else where that the coin comes into contact with the enviroment.

 

The issue here is that this circulation may be a natural process rather than a deliberate process to change the surface. Now who can differentiate between natural and deliberate in a ALL cases? Yes with some cases we can tell a botched job but other cases its pure speculation and a fallable judgement.

 

Why?

 

Because the submitter is not given the benifit of doubt by the TPGS and may be considered a potential coin doctor. Its a defensive rather than an affirming position to take.

 

It seems in some cases the TPGS's can destroy the value of a coin by labeling it "Altered" even though the evidence is inconclusive and is based on a subjective opinion by like minded graders.

 

Now the term "Altered" can mean ANY chemical or physical process including CLEANING or CONSERVING or RESTORATION. You disturb the surface of a coin no matter how slight and it has been changed. The point is can it be detected? And if the surface was disturbed was it by a natural or deliberate process? How many hairlines constitute cleaning? Were the hairlines made by mishandling or deliberate attempt to clean? Who can assign a cause without knowing the handling history?

 

So what can be done? Perhaps we can suggest that the term "Altered Surfaces" be discontinued. Perhaps PCGS has already started this in the new label "Genuine" and codify any problems the coin may have. These codified problems must be defined, however. Hopefully they will be comprehensive for all to understand and agree to. Otherwise, we are right back where we started from.

[RareSov]

Sigh, please don't post that and confuse him.

 

Altered surface = doctored = deceitful !

 

It is assumed you know SOMETHING about coins when you apply the term altered surface to one. Surface is not tone. Tone is above the metal. Dip can alter or remove that without

 

Back to your original question I would stick with distilled water for dirt on high purity silver and gold, then sit on paper towel to dry.

 

If you have some old junk with black or dark ugly toning you can test on, get some silver dip and a cotton bud and distilled water ready for a quick rinse. Dab it on the dark nasty toning and do not leave it, immediately wash it off. Repeat if necessary. Slow is always better

[RareSov]

Jim Beam, I think you should post description of your coin and just do the best you can. Any which you think might need cleaning. State why you think it needs cleaning

[Jim Beam]

First, thanks to both "itsnowtoo" and "RareSov" for the replies. Let me start at the begining. When I was 14 (in 1961 - you can do the math), my grandmother gave me a large number of coins put away by my gradfather who was a banker from 1910-1935 give or take a year. This is when I first became interested in the hobby. These coins were taken from the bank box in 1961. These are very nice coins and appear to be mostly MS in grade. These coins are not all bright and shiny like everythng I see/purchase on "e---" or in a coin shop from the same time period (1912 Liberty and 1913 Buff 5cents, 1916 Mercury dimes, 1917 SLQ, etc). Many of my coins have some toning and most are not bright and shiny but some are also brilliant in appearance. I placed all the coins in 2x2s when I initially received them and they appear to look the same today. I recently have taken samples of these coins to a supposedly reputable coin dealer in my area. He basically said they were not worth grading and that some of them "had been cleaned". I could not believe both statements as some of these coins are, in my opinion, very much worth grading and I do not for one minute believe they were cleaned before being placed in the bank box. The fact I rarely see a highly graded coin (or any coin for that matter) on the internet or in coin shops that doesn't appear to be bright and shiny leads me to believe that many of these coins have had to have had something done to them. They certainly do not look like some of my coins. I am sure some of the coins out there did come from original rolls and are legitimate, untampered with coins. But what happened to the mid-grade, circulated coins that also are usually bright and shiny? I realize that "bright and shiny" is only one of several grading factors but it seems like every coin I look at today is bright and shiny. I have to think some/many of them have been cleaned and still pass grade. I definitely believe this is the case with most raw coins. I have never seen an "ugly" coin in Coin World or any of the auction listings. They all look really outstanding.

 

I really have no plans to do anything to my coins as far as cleaning them. I would like to have some of them graded and, after studying this website, it appears maybe some "conservation" tactics (NCS?) need to be considered. What I am looking for is some direction as to how I proceed (can I submit coins? do I need to go through a dealer? etc.). I am sure this information is somewhere on this website but I am still uncertain what I could/should do. While I have collected coins for many years and have added to my collection, I am just now getting serious about where my coins fit with regard to their quality and the quality of my collection. The information you have all provided related to my initilal question "Cleaning vs Conservation", has been very much appreciated and will be helpful to me. I am not looking for anyone to say that it is a hobby standard to "clean/conserve" your coins but when all I see are clean looking coins, I have to believe it is more common (acceptable??) than I had imagined. Maybe I am the only one with less than brilliant looking coins! or, maybe I am just totally naive when it comes to this great hobby! Take care and thanks for listening.

[RareSov]

It sounds like you might have some beauties !

 

The line about being cleaned could have been complete bollox. I recommend either sending the more valuable ones to NGC or finding someone you can trust who knows more about coins and can give you an unbiased opinion on whether they are cleaned

 

To examine yourself with an eyeglass you are basically looking for fine scratches that go all the same way or are in circular patterns. Toning may hide it though

 

I wouldn't be cleaning any of those babies !

[RareSov]

PS bright and shiny is absolutely not a grading point. Eye appeal is, and actual mint luster/shine on the coin

 

But brightness itself is not what they are looking at. Easy to think it is, thats why people have buffed dull coins with a fine wire brush to make them shiny and sell better

 

You should study this very carefully http://www.ngccoin.com/pdf/nograde.pdf

 

[Jim Beam]

RareSov: Great link you provided. That answered a lot of my questions. I also located the "Altered Surfaces" thread (pointed out by 'itsnowtoo' and found that to also be of real value. I appreciate all the help everyone provided.

[RareSov]

BIG thumbs up to NCS

 

My first coin came back today

 

So impressed. For a badly hairlined proof, that had been dipped already by the seller !!

 

It came up stunning

[prudden]

Get a second and third opinion on your coins.Believe it or not,serious collectors do know the difference between "original and "dipped" surfaces. Original Uncirculated or near uncirculated and toned coins do bring a premium from the right buyer.Also,rare circulated coins as well.There are people who will dip a coin with "ugly toning" and sometimes it pays off but not often.I sure would like to see some of what you have.

[silvertimes]

You should not remove or move metal . Dipping in pure old tarnish remover may be removing metal . Part of the value of a coin is the fact of the condition . It is very tempting to slice off that upturned metal or burnish away a shallow scratch , BUT DO NOT DO IT . That may be considered Altering or even Counterfeiting of Condition and will most likely be detected anyway . There are penalties for some of these things . That said I admit I clean coins . I hate dirt , grease , oil and whatnot on my coins . Germs gotta go away . If I choose to clean and I do not always , I use soft hand soap and either a Camel Hair Brush or a Soft Cosmetic Applicator Brush and very gently ease the dirt off of the coin . Weak Isopropyl Alcohol was called to use once and also Strong dish soap . Always rinse well after this if you do it and dry very carefully as even a soft cloth may change the appearance . I probably clean 30 % of the ugly coins I get and the rest just stay ugly . Serious coin dirt I cannot stand and if there is an AU55 in there or even an MS Grade I find it hard not to clean . Whizzing , serious dipping , rubbing and all such is for amateurs and those that wish to deceive . I am returning a 1901 Morgan this week that wash rub polished . The weak picture fooled me .

Hope this all helps , if I am way off hit me with scorn here and now .

[HiHoAudio]

I placed all the coins in 2x2s when I initially received them and they appear to look the same today.

 

I really have no plans to do anything to my coins as far as cleaning them.

 

So far you have done everything right.

 

I would suggest you join the NGC Collectors Society, a one year Premium membership costs $109 and you are entitled to direct submissions without going through a dealer plus 5 FREE submissions.

 

($39 for an associate membership but no free submissions.)

 

Pick your 5 best coins (better yet make a list, post it here and we'll help you pick the top five) send them in and see what happens.

 

No matter what the outcome you will have received an excellent education for $109. Cheaper than college!

[coinman1794]

PS bright and shiny is absolutely not a grading point. Eye appeal is, and actual mint luster/shine on the coin

 

But brightness itself is not what they are looking at. Easy to think it is, thats why people have buffed dull coins with a fine wire brush to make them shiny and sell better

 

You should study this very carefully http://www.ngccoin.com/pdf/nograde.pdf

 

This is not a post for or against cleaning, but in actuality, the services tend to grade the bright and shiny coins MUCH higher than the same coin with light toning or haze. The brightness of the luster is a major grading factor because it can overpower even the most prominent field marks, sometimes allowing a rather baggy coin to grade gem. The same baggy coin with soft golden toning or a little haze might grade MS63-4, in many cases.

 

 

[M.H.-migration]

Cleaning is misleading, to remove dirt from a coin but not altering the original surface is okay (conservation). To change the surface of the coin by removing the outer skin via "dipping" or making a natually toned coin shiny is what everyone thinks of as cleaning and the purist don't like that.

[RareSov]

Hi all,

 

Since this thread is back in action, here is the coin I referred to above

 

There is still a tiny bit of peripheral toning. Before, this toning was not clear because originally the whole coin was slightly hazed. The seller used light dipping but some remained, so I sent it to NCS

 

[comicdonna]

Can someone explain what the term "Whizzing" means pertaining to coins?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mike

[RareSov]

Whizzed

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3921663

 

[comicdonna]

Whizzed

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3921663

Thanks! (thumbs u

[Flcracker-migration]

I am in a similar fix as Jim Beam, having acquired a large batch of coins in varying states. I have some nice coins that w\had been stored in a bag with some foreign coins and have some surface corrosion. Some of the pennies have "Fly specks" of corrosion, but are otherwise nice coins. A very few have excessive surface corrosion.

 

I have another batch of silver coins that seem to have a lot of surface grime, although that might be corrosion as well. I do not think a rinse in mineral water is going to make much of a dent in the grime.

 

The remainder just have natural toning. The acetone mentioned in another thread sounded like something that might remove the grime without harming the surface, but I don't know.

As they are none of these coins have much value, and some are potentially good coins. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[BadThad]

I LOVE this topic!

 

Cleaning - A physical or chemical process that adversely alters a coins surfaces resulting in a market unacceptable coin.

 

Conservation - A careful and calculated process that removes/addresses a problem without adversely affecting the coins surfaces resulting in a market acceptable coin.

 

It's really that simple!

[lennyzee-migration]

Seeing as the last post in this thread was five years ago I wonder if it will even get read but here goes. It seems to me that a gentle soaking in hot water and a little dish soap or liquid hand soap and then either gently dabbing with a chamois or just running under fast running hot water is far less intrusive and altering than all these chemicals I've been reading about. I have taken dirty coins and soaked them in just dish soap for an hour or so then gently dabbing, under hot water in a bowl, with a chamois. It produces no striations, no marks of any kind. Am I to believe this is altering a coin more than those chemical baths, or is less acceptable. If so, why? Educate me, please, but make it real.

[Oldtrader3]

There are a number of solvents which are employed to clean just chemicals off the surfaces of coins which when not combined with any sort of rubbing or friction, just soaking for various lengths of time, will remove many types of dirt and human contamination without harming the pristine surfaces of most silver, gold and nickel coins. Copper is a different topic because of oxidation issues which cause surface or surface oxide color changes and will get a coin bodybagged for chemical alteration.

 

Beyond plain deionized water soaking, there is isopropyl alcohol and acetone which will often remove verdigris and oil stains Certainly on coins if contaminates have not damaged or etched the coin surface. Certain other chemicals like Methylene chloride and Cyclohexidine may also remove surface chemical stains and leave a clean pristine surface if the coin has not been etched or chemically damaged.

 

Coins can be soaked in clean reservoirs or covered jars of these aromatic solvents and rinsed with DI water after soaking in order to clean many coins that have biological or dirt contamination on the surface.

 

These techniques are not for the faint of heart or those who worry obsessively about damaging a classic coin and maybe should be tried on cheaper coins initially to assure positive outcomes with no surprises.

 

Sometimes copper coins can be cleaned with Acetone and soaked afterwords in nut oil to regain some natural colors of RB copper alloy coins. This is for experts though, not novices or you may end up with a Details graded coin.

 

Copper has also been extensively cleaned with MS70 cleaner which contains thiourea compounds which clean silver and copper coins very well. However, they also ofter leave and blue toning residue on the coin with has caused some coins to be Body-bagged for artificial toning, but not always. I would be very careful about using this MS70 cleaner on valuable coins.

[BadThad]

there is isopropyl alcohol and acetone which will often remove verdigris .

 

Verdigris is primarily composed of inorganic salts which are insoluble in organic solvents. Neither IPA nor acetone will remove verdigris.