David Hall wants to give you $1000

[currentcoin]

Challenge for $1000

web page

 

 

Glen

[truthteller]

Let's see:

 

You have to make it to the finals, so that means DH can knock you out along the way

 

You supposedly get a check, no mention if the check is good.

 

You have to pay $50 anyway, so DH can say 'sucker' when you lose.

 

You have to pay for airfare to the grading events, more DH saying 'sucker'.

 

 

 

TRUTH.

[dakra]

Sounds like an ego thing or he's had a wee too much of the Irish Whiskey. ;-)

 

-Dave

 

 

[Dry]

Dr. Evil: "ONE THOU SAND Dollars"

 

 

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

Challenge for $1000

web page

 

 

Glen

Good for him.

 

 

Edited to add...I think any interaction over there with DH is a good thing.I certainly hope some one takes him up on the offer.I just wish I had the skills.I WOULD JUMP ALL IN IT.It sounds like a ton of fun.

 

 

[currentcoin]

Where is greg?

Over in the Foreign Coins I'll bet

 

Glen

[gmarguli]

How about letting an independent organization randomly pick the coins from the marketplace and do the contest. That way PCGS and DH, who I have zero doubt can't play fair and ethical, cannot screw with the results.

 

Then put DH in the grading contest. If he performs below, let's say 90% of the people, he personally refunds ALL the money ever taken in for the Presidential Review and the service is discontinued. He then resigns from CU.

 

Then put all the PCGS graders on the line and publish their results in The Greysheet, Bluesheet, Numismatic News, and Coin World, with their name against the original grades PCGS assigned. For every grader that scores below a certain percent CU donates $1,000,000 to the ANA.

 

[truthteller]

I just saw some pigs fly and someone threw snowballs in hell.

 

 

TRUTH

[currentcoin]

There you are.

 

I thought you would have some input.

 

Thinking of taking the test greg?

 

"Mr. Hall" said there are 17 people signed up for it.

 

Glen

 

[braddick]

Pretty soon it'll get to a point where there is very little to mock with PCGS and then we'll be forced to get back to talking about COINS.

 

Ok, who am I fooling? There will always be "real life issues" taken up against PCGS. "Issues" we can beat to death here.

[BillJones]

Just another publicity stunt for Mr. Hall.

 

He’ll NEVER pay on this bet. Why? The embarrassment to the David Hall and PCGS empire would be too great. Forget the 1,000 bucks. That’s chump change. He just won’t let it happen.

 

Has for ragging on PCGS grading, I saw a truly “remarkable” PCGS coin offered at the Baltimore show last week.

 

Would you pay Gray Sheet bid for an 1807 dime in PCGS AU-50? Virtually every dealer and most astute collections would say “YES!!!!” In this market a coin like that, at least on the surface, would offer a chance for an EASY $200+++ profit.

 

I was at a dealer’s table when a collector offered one to him at "bid." He PASSED for extremely good reason. The coin had been cleaned to a dull, dead, flat gray. There also huge scratches on and in front of the face. This piece could have been body bagged for either “altered surfaces” or “scratches.” If it had been in an ACG holder, I would not have been surprised, BUT IT WAS A PCGS COIN!!!!

 

The trouble is to make this case one has to lay out $1,750 and then go wrestle with Hall & Co. to make the point. It’s just not worth it, and it goes to show that their grading guarantee is not worth squat.

 

In a sense I’d like to show this coin around, twist the lion’s tail and force Big Dave to buy it back at $1,750 plus the 1,000 bucks he’s offering to prove him wrong. But one has to go through too many hoops to prove a point that ALL bright collectors and dealers know. BUY THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER.

 

[coppercoins-migration]

I all but came right out and said I would take the challenge and am being ignored. Thing is, I am a typical person with a typical job and cannot afford the time or money to travel for this contest, wherever it is. While I am certain I would do well, I am not certain I could make any 'finals' in something PCGS is behind, since their grading is - well - quirky. PCGS grading standards are a bit odd - I follow strict ANA standards and nobody complains about my grading.

[gmarguli]

Thinking of taking the test greg?

 

Nope. A test like this can be tainted to show results of what the test administrator wants. In this case I'm sure that DH wants to show that people can't grade as well as the mighty PCGS. While few people have the broad knowledge of all series that professional graders do, there are many people who know limited series extremely well - better than the professional graders.

 

What coins are going to be in this test? Are they going to stick VF25 Turban head gold in there? An AU53 early copper? Are we talking about an MS68 state quarter? How about a PF62 matte coin? The range of coins could be things that most collectors never come into contact with in grades that are hairsplitters. And what happens if 85% of the people taking the test grade a coin MS64, but PCGS graded it MS65? Who got the grade correct? According to PCGS 85% got it WRONG, but according to the marketplace, PCGS got it wrong.

 

Also, are the coins going to be tweeners (i.e. the type of coins that if you submitted them 100 times they would come back one grade 70% of the time and the other grade 30% of the time) or bodybag tweeners (the type of coins that may get bodybagged 1/3 of the time and slabbed the other 2/3 of the time)?

 

I'll be happy to take a test of grading PCGS coins if:

 

1) The test is administered by a neutral 3rd party.

2) The coins are RANDOMLY selected by the 3rd party.

3) DH grades the coins blindly like everyone else.

4) At least 2 PCGS graders also grade the coins blindly.

5) The coins get sent thru blindly to PCGS to have them regrade them.

 

If DH wants to prove PCGS is so infallible, then let’s see him agree to a REAL test where there is actual downside to him and PCGS. After all, wouldn't it be great if he, the PCGS graders, and PCGS scored 95% on the test while everyone else scored 60%! That would show the marketplace how great PCGS really is. Of course, were they to score only a few percent higher than the average person taking the test, that might ruin their business. Is DH man enough to allow a test where there are real consequences for him and his company? Nope!

 

I can put together a test of 100 coins where I doubt that PCGS (or NGC for that matter) would get more than 50% correct on regrade. All you need to do is pick unusual coins, split grade circ coins, tweeners, and the misgraded coins out in the marketplace. What would the test prove? Nothing, other than buy the coin and not the slabbed grade.

 

For example, I posted a picture of an Indian cent on these forums. DH, ANACS, and two people from NGC called the coin AU50. The first time thru PCGS it got bodybagged. The second time thru, after someone mentioned my name to DH, the coin went VF20. If that coin were put in front of every grader that ever worked at PCGS, NGC, or ANACS, I doubt a single one of them would grade the coin VF-anything. I’d be pretty surprised if any of them graded it XF40. Now, is this a coin you want in your grading test?

 

Oh, a side note, based on coins I've shown DH and gotten his opinion on, he is 1-for-3. ACG grades better.

 

 

[truthteller]

Greg,

 

Very well presented. The PCGS test is inherently fallible, these are opinions as to grade, not a yes or no test, or a mathematical test where there is certainty of an answer. Thus, really, no truly knowlegeable grader can win other than the one PCGS picks behind the scenes. You can come close, but there will always be too many variables.

 

 

PS- If DH only has 17 sign ups by now, this may be a PR disaster. I would expect

several hundred.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[BillJones]

You're right, gmarguli. The deck will be stacked against you at the PCGS grading fest. I as a dealer could not afford to spend money to go to the locations when they are holding this, and take time from my business to participate. I could easily lose $10,000 in buiness.

 

Second what if they put a crapy coin like the 1807 dime I cited earlier into the contest. Every person with the expertise would BB or net undergrade it.

 

BUT THE GODS ON MOUNT PCGS HAVE DECREED THAT IT IS AN AU-50!!! (echo, echo, echo)

 

EENNAKK! That's one WRONG answer and one strike against you, you #$%@^

upstart!

 

No I'll not have anything to do Mr. Hall's marketing stunt.

 

How much to you want to bet that the winner will be the biggest PCGS weenie on the planet? I bet he or she will be look really great on a PCGS bun with mustard and relish.

[spy88]

ANALOGY---

ACT 1-SCENE 1;

 

The place: Newport Beach, Calif. The time: somewhere in the future.

The set: PCGS all-volunteer military outpost. All ammo supplied by PCGS or you can get your own from some other source. Your choice.

 

Sargeant-major to General---

"Sir, the men are fed up with their equipment, especially their ammo. They

say they jam too easily, misfire and veer off-line. They say there is no way YOU could hit the bullseye with your own ammo.

 

General---

"Yes, I know. I've been hearing the scuttlebutt for sometime now. Just don't understand it. We have been all over the world doing our thing to the best of our abilities with nary a peep from most outsiders. Now we have what is tantamount to an up-rising in our own ranks! Don't our people know they have a choice as to what ammo they wish to carry into battle with them? Don't they realize they aren't forced to carry a PCGS ammo? Its been one of the highest-rated and most accurate bullets on the market for some time now, but if they don't like it, they can get another brand."

 

Sargeant-major---

"Yes, sir. I've been through it all with you and the men and can't understand it as well. They know they can switch suppliers, but they feel you should personally take on the responsibility of proving to them that a PCGS bullet is better then any others. They want you to go to the range and prove the accuracy of a PCGS round in a contest with the best sharpshooters in our outfit. They have a saying out there---put up or shut up."

 

General---

"Sargeant, if I do this, do you think they will shut up? Do you think it will quell the mens reticence about using our brand of ammo?

 

Sargeant-major---

"No sir, I do not. I think this may be nothing more then a ploy to bring you down. The men all know how strict the design and materials of a PCGS bullet is. They know they don't have to use it and yet new recruits keep ordering them regardless of the rumors bouncing around. I think its just a few of the most vocal opponents to it that are inflaming the issue."

 

General---

"Well, after (less then) careful consideration, I have decided to agree to this contest and will even put up $1000 of my own money if any of them can out-shoot me. Set it up and let me know who enters."

 

Sargeant-major---

"Sir, are you SURE you want to do this? I mean, begging the generals pardon, but even if you win, there will be some to say it was rigged, or how you fixed a special PCGS weapon for yourself. And if you ahem, lose, the repercussions with echo throughout all the branches of our service for time immemorial. Sir, they would never let you forget it or live it down! This could ring in the end to our dominance of what we do."

 

General---

"Damn it to hell, sargeant-major, I am TIRED of all the whining in my camp! I have every confidence in our PCGS ammo and aim to prove it! I can still sight in a target as good as any of our recruits and am willing to put up my own money to prove I can do it BETTER then them! So, get to it and put out the word!"

 

Sargeant-major---

"Yes sir! I'm on it!"

 

END OF ACT 1. ACT 2 TO START AFTER A BRIEF INTERMISSION.

 

 

 

[dakra]

I loved Greg's post and I have to admit, if David Hall wants to throw out a challenge, he and his graders should take the challenge themselves. Let's see how they compare against the 17 other people who have signed up so far

 

Of course, If Hall and any PCGS grader takes the challenge I think a non-biased 3rd party should select the coins.

 

I've bagged on PCGS but mainly for Quality Control and Customer Service. If Mr. Hall wants to enter me, send me the coins, have me grade them, post the results on his website as a "PCGS Bagger" who can only get 30% right :-) , if it makes him feel good, then enter me!

 

I'm sure my address is still on file at PCGS, just PM me when you ship the coins. If by some miracle I win something, I will donate it to charity.

 

-Dave

[truthteller]

 

 

 

TRUTH

[braddick]

For the life of me I can't find a post where I bagged on PCGS. I want to enter with the fee waived by David Hall but need that post.

(If anyone can lead me to where I've posted a negative regarding PCGS I'll split my winnings with you!)

[goose3]

This was posted a few days ago across the street......................

 

" Leon Hendrickson from Silvertowne once told me about an 1884-S dollar he had. It was a PCGS 62 and he had a customer willing to pa him 62 money for it. But he thought it could go 63 so he cracked it and sent it back in.

 

AU-58 Cracked it again

 

Body Bagged Cracked it again

 

MS-60 Cracked it again

 

AU-50 Cracked it again

 

Body bagged Cracked it again

 

MS-61 that's were it was when he told me the story and he was undecided as to whether to try again or just take his lumps."

 

 

What I fail to understand is how can the contest have any credibility if these comments are indeed true? Just because one of the "baggers" jots down that a coin is MS62 and the slab says MS64 doesn't mean a thing looking at these results.

 

I agree with Greg that it would have to be a set of coins picked out by a neutral party that the full time graders have not even seen prior to slabbing whenever. These coins are then taken and grades are assigned by all the contestants as well as the graders and all results are posted as well as what the insert says.

[gmarguli]

For the life of me I can't find a post where I bagged on PCGS. I want to enter with the fee waived by David Hall but need that post.

(If anyone can lead me to where I've posted a negative regarding PCGS I'll split my winnings with you!)

 

Have you checked under all your IDs?

 

Are you going to enter the contest? I believe Round 1 is at Long Beach, Round 2 in Taipei, Taiwan, Round 3 in Mogadishu, Somalia and the Final Round is in Astana, Kazakhstan. A quick trip to all those places and you could be a winner too!

[MAULEMALL]

For the life of me I can't find a post where I bagged on PCGS. I want to enter with the fee waived by David Hall but need that post.

(If anyone can lead me to where I've posted a negative regarding PCGS I'll split my winnings with you!)

 

Have you checked under all your IDs?

 

Are you going to enter the contest? I believe Round 1 is at Long Beach, Round 2 in Taipei, Taiwan, Round 3 in Mogadishu, Somalia and the Final Round is in Astana, Kazakhstan. A quick trip to all those places and you could be a winner too!

[Leothelion]

If a neutral party does enter the picture who will be eating crow? Several have made some consessions if for some turn of the event were held otherwise or too favorable. I wouldn't commit to anything that has to do with DH and PCGS. The simple fact, DH cannot be trusted!

If this is anything short of an apology by DH, it's laughable, to say the least! It's a slap in the face if anyone buys his BS! I don't understand where he gets this idea that he and PCGS gets bagged. If there is anyone who has done the most damage to the numismatic hobby of coin collecting and the coin market, it's no other than DH himself. He's the biggest bagger of them all! He's the one who has hurt PCGS the most. The best thing DH can do is to step down, retire and get the he!! out of his own way and perhaps PCGS will survive!

 

Leo

 

I really didn't want to post!

By the way, David, great anology you have there.

Coppercoins, great post abroad, bag the goad!

[rkkay-migration]

I don't know why you all are bagging on DH. He recently "forgave" me for being "pushy and threatening." I shouldn't have expected a response after 5 letters and two emails. BAD ME!!

[braddick]

For the life of me I can't find a post where I bagged on PCGS. I want to enter with the fee waived by David Hall but need that post.

(If anyone can lead me to where I've posted a negative regarding PCGS I'll split my winnings with you!)

 

Have you checked under all your IDs?

 

Are you going to enter the contest? I believe Round 1 is at Long Beach, Round 2 in Taipei, Taiwan, Round 3 in Mogadishu, Somalia and the Final Round is in Astana, Kazakhstan. A quick trip to all those places and you could be a winner too!

Greg, why yes. Yes I have. STILL couldn't find anything...

OK if I borrow one of yours?!

[gmarguli]

Greg, why yes. Yes I have. STILL couldn't find anything...

OK if I borrow one of yours?!

 

Sure.

 

User ID: doops

Password: scumbag

 

 

[dragon]

Guys,

 

I hate to go against the croud and be a Benedict Arnold here however I think much of the criticism about this contest/PR stunt/whatever is unfounded. I think that for this contest, PCGS will most likely use a wide variety of coins/grades from many popular series in very straightforward, no quibble grades with perhaps a couple of toughies or no grade coins just to mix it up a bit. I doubt very much that the coins included would be primarily esoteric or 'liner' coins because everyone would then complain and cry foul after the event is over which would not serve PCGS well in the long run, and would certainly discourage people from entering in the future should PCGS decide to repeat this event.

 

dragon

[braddick]

Greg, why yes. Yes I have. STILL couldn't find anything...

OK if I borrow one of yours?!

 

Sure.

 

User ID: doops

Password: scumbag

 

[EZ_E]

Dr. Evil: "ONE THOU SAND Dollars"

 

 

 

 

 

 

A'right, guys, hold the phone for a sec. I don't think that this post got adequate appreciation. Let us pause for a moment in appreciation of the poster's wit. Ok, we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.