Selling A Country.....

[spy88]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3050475108&category=4369

 

When I first saw this listing, I noticed it but went right past it. But after a few minutes, the question that was forming in my head about it hit me.

 

IS THIS LEGAL?

 

I know there are all kinds of foreign paper and coins from all around the world being sold on eBay and probably many other places. But because of the current state of affairs in Iraq, what is the currency being used there now by the Iraqi people for their day-to-day struggle to survive? The same as being sold here or something else?

 

The question is moot because either answer still leaves begging the question---

what is the "trail" of these bills behind the seller being able to put them up for auction? Now, before anyone jumps down my throat for pre-supposing this seller is doing anything in the least illegal, this is not the case. In fact, I am REASONABLY sure there is a completely legal explanation behind his acquisitions. I just can not "see" it and am asking for your help in order to do so.

 

Please post a logical, reasonable, probable scenerio for me to visualize.

Mint-fresh, crisp, clean Iraqi Dinar notes and BU coinage WERE in the Central Bank of Iraq at one time. Go from there, that is the "seed of the tree". It can be as short a route as seed to highest leaf, or as complicated as seed to highest leaf with stops at every branch. But remember! The more complicated the scenerio, the more detail you have to explain.

 

Is all this serious? YES! Someone, somewhere in Iraq profited from these very same bills/coins. Who were they? Bankers, politicians, businessmen, the average ahmad on the street? Who is more likely to have(had) access to them in quantity? (and remember QUALITY), with connections across borders and oceans, physically and/or matrix-ly? We can only guess at the timeline for any scenerio but a logical, reasonable, probable one, IMHO, as recent as inside a month at most. I am sure there is a date on the bills pictured, but I did not translate before this post. This is based on the auction listings and nothing else. And remember to factor in the going rate for Iraqi Dinar in USD---

1 Dinar=30c USD, so a 250 Dinar note is worth almost $81 USD. If the seller does not realize at least this amount from a bidder, could you/should you deduce he lost money on the transaction of obtaining them? The starting bids are not even close to actual trade value.

 

Ah, but I have exposed a piece of the equation here! So!

 

I'll let it go.

 

David

 

 

[jtryka]

These are legal to own and sell, but I cannot speculate as to whether these bills were obtained illegally. A couple of things to remember:

 

1). The central bank of Iraq introduced a new dinar on Oct. 4 that went into circulation on Oct. 15. They are exchangable at a rate of 1:1 with the old dinars, but they must be exchanged by Dec. 15.

 

2). The actual exchange rate of the dinar to the dollar is about 2,000 to 1, not 30c each, so this note has a USD value of about 12.5c.

 

3). The exchange rate dropped as low as 4,000 to the dollar at the height of the war before returning to 2,000 to the dollar which is about the same as their pre-war level. So, this currency could have been from before the war, as trillions of dinar were printed and circulated by the Hussein regime. That's not to say this couldn't have been looted from the central bank, but only to say that it is also likely to have a legitimate source. I was in Mexico about 10 years ago when the peso was 3,000 to the dollar, and I could have come home with a suitcase full of crisp new 2,000 peso bills if I wanted to, since any Mexican was more than happy to take my dollars in exchange. Since then, the peso was revalued at 1 new peso = 1,000 old pesos, with an initial exchange rate of 3:1, which has since fallen to 10.5 to 1. So the 17,000 pesos I brought back with (value then: 17,000/3,000=$5.67) me are now equal to 17 new pesos with a value of $1.62. Guess who made out on that deal? \

 

By the way, here is a link to the story on the new Iraqi currency: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/faces/6933951.htm

[spy88]

jtryka, Followed your link and read the page, but am now confused by conflicting reports.

 

http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic

 

This link allows you to convert any foreign currency to USD. The conversion of $1USD = .32 Dinar or 1 Dinar = $3.08USD making a 250 Dinar note equal to $770USD. Different then last night when I did it. I am of the mind there is something wrong with this, but that is what it tells me.

[jtryka]

I believe what they are converting is the Swiss Iraqi Dinar which was in use in most of Northern Iraq. Those dinars convert to the new Dinar at a rate of 1 Swiss Dinar = 150 New Dinars. Though even that might not be right. I don't know about that site, but I do know that in most cases, the new dinar (equivalent to the one in the auction) is trading at about 2,000 to the dollar. That website is great, but I bet you'll learn a harsh lesson if you try to get $770 for that 250 dinar note!

[spy88]

Believe me, jt, I have absolutely no desire to own ANY of them at ANY price.

The theme of my post has nothing to directly do with this part of it. Regardless of the value of the Dinar, the paper trail is what I was/am interested in. I, for one, would find it fascinating to know the details of how the bills arrived in the sellers hands!

 

I was just hoping someone could put up a reasonable scenerio for it.

 

David

[jtryka]

Well, there are a whole lot of possible scenarios, some perfectly legit, others not so. My guess is that these were acquired by an individual from an iraqi source in exchange for dollars before the war. My bet is that as troops masses on the border, wealthy iraqi citizens decided it was time to get rid of dinars and into dollars, so they withdraw a bunch of crisp notes and sell them to an outfit here, who wants to profit on them as memorabilia. Could they have been stolen, certainly. Could they have come from someone high up in the regime, sure. But with the military's strict enforcement agains looting by troops, and the aggressive seaching for looted currency, these probably came through legitimate means (besides, none of the bad guys was trying to escape with a truckload of dinars to sell on eBay, they took dollars and gold, the items worth something outside Iraq). If these were stolen, they were probably stolen by an average joe iraqi citizen trying to support his family.

[spy88]

I have decided to let the seller speak for himself and have asked him (if he would not mind) to explain how he came by the notes. He may or may not respond, but I will let you know if he does and what he says.

 

David

[spy88]

UPDATE: From seller---"I have a dealer in Amman, Jordan that bought unused packs [of bills] from an Iraqi source once they were demonitized. I get them from him."

 

Easy solution but it still leaves me curious for more details. I guess I will never know!

 

David