How do you value color on a coin...

[MAULEMALL]

 

Is there any premium for color on the reverse but not on the obverse...

 

 

 

[robec1347]

From what I have gleaned from talking to various collectors that predominately collect toners is that, yes there is a premium on reverse toners. But the larger premium is on the obverse. I'm sure Sy or Jack Kelly might chime in and verify this.

[lehigh96]

Rainbow Toned Reverse coins certainly still drive a premium. I can't really say how that premium relates to that of the obverse toned coins, but in my experience it is a little less. I don't like to pay a premium for a coin simply because of the color. The coin needs to have both color and luster so that the patina is vibrant. Take a look at the two coins shown below. The Battle Creek example has nice color but it is not really vibrant or vivid. The 1883-O on the other hand; this coin speaks for itself. One coin drives a 2X bid premium, the other a 20X bid premium.

 

 

Personally, I don't really care whether the toning is on the obverse or reverse as long as it looks like the toning on the 1883-O above. I also try to stay away from the MS63 toned Morgans as the bag marks at that grade detract significantly from the overall eye appeal.

[kryptonitecomics]

There is no price guide for color....experience is the best guide. Looking at completed auction prices, Ebay, going to shows....these 3 things can give one a really good sense of what the market price is for a coin but ultimately it's up to the individual to decide what they are willing to pay.

 

There most certainly is a difference between the toning premium for Obverse vs reverse toned coins. Obverse toners are more popular and can command double the price or more for the right coin but.......it's impossible to make a blanket statement becuase it all depends on the color and luster. (thumbs u

[MikeInFL]

"How do you value color on a coin... "

 

Pretend the coin has no color, and value it. Then assess just how "good' the toning is and place a multiplier on the original value. For most coins I won't value toning to more than the next grade up, and as a result I tend not to buy "wildly popular" toners (like MPLs, Morgans, and many moderns). As others have mentioned, reverse color is valued less than obverse color.

 

But that's just me, and YMMV.

[MAULEMALL]

"How do you value color on a coin... "

 

Pretend the coin has no color, and value it. Then assess just how "good' the toning is and place a multiplier on the original value. For most coins I won't value toning to more than the next grade up, and as a result I tend not to buy "wildly popular" toners (like MPLs, Morgans, and many moderns).

 

But that's just me, and YMMV.

Part of the reason I asked this is the 80 S Morgan being sold by Polaris Numismatics In MS64 by NGC ...

I have no affiliation or am I spamming the boards for him ... More so that I am trying to get a feeling for his prices...

$800.00 for a reverse toned Morgan.

 

 

Are these the Norm??

[MikeInFL]

I suspect I'm going to get flamed for this, so all I am going to say is that Brandon has long been associated with what I would call very optimistic prices, and the coin you posted is a prime example. That's not to say that I don't like Brandon (I do), he doesn't have nice coins (he does), or he's not willing to negotiate (he is) -- it is only a comment on the prices which I have a great deal of difficulty justifying.

 

All that said, I do not collect toned Morgans, so there are others (Shane, for example) who watches this market much closer than I and could give you a more educated opinion on how this example stacks up to others, and the pricing associated with these issues.

 

All IMHO and respectfully submitted...Mike

 

p.s. Personally, I think that toned Morgans are a dime a dozen and there's no reason to pay crazy multiples of bid for such common coins with common looks/toning. But to each his own!

[robec1347]

In my opinion, I don't think the toning or color of that Morgan is worth a premium of 10-15 times the value of an 1880-S in MS64 condition.

[kryptonitecomics]

I suspect I'm going to get flamed for this, so all I am going to say is that Brandon has long been associated with what I would call very optimistic prices, and the coin you posted is a prime example. That's not to say that I don't like Brandon (I do), he doesn't have nice coins (he does), or he's not willing to negotiate (he is) -- it is only a comment on the prices which I have a great deal of difficulty justifying.

 

 

I agree with Mike on his take on Brandon & Polaris....as was the case with Anaconda....I love the people but I thought most of the coin were priced at way above the market. Did they sell coins...yes and I felt folks were burried in them but they were nice coins and the buyers were happy so it's none of my business.....will they work with you on the price...I have heard they have and I know that some of the coin are consigned so the prices aren't set by Brandon. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head but I will tell you that the market price for that Morgan is around $150.....$200 max. I sold a similar coin raw to a forum member for $70 and it graded a 63* at NGC.

 

There are plenty of over priced nice coins on the market, toned and untoned and its up to the buyer to make an educated guess on what he values the coin at (thumbs u

[PCcoins]

well said Shane, you know your toners (thumbs u

[lehigh96]

I have been a long time customer of Anaconda and plan to be a customer of Polaris. Brandon's prices are very high IMO, but you can negotiate pretty easily. I usually wait on a coin in his inventory until it has been there for a while and then try to get the coin for actual market value. One note is that Brandon does not think very highly of the Battle Creek coins and will usually sell them for less than other sellers. With regards to the coin you are talking about, no way is that coin worth $800. I agree that $200 would be about the top of the range for that coin.

 

 

[ant]

depends how the colors work with design on my part.

[physics-fan3.14]

If I like it, I buy it. The level of my liking it determines the level at which I'll buy it.

[TJ'S Coins]

I've known dealers specializing in toned coins who do charge premiums for toning on both sides or how lustrous the coin looks through the toning. The buyer has to evaluate if they wish to pay the premium or not.

[Houston Investor]

While I can see superb toning carrying a premium of say 10 - 50% it is an absurdity for sellers to ask much more than this. It is certainly a ripoff when sellers are asking multiples of a coins market value simply for toning. There are many mullet collectors out there who will pay this without realizing when it comes time to sell they are looking at bluesheet. Toned coins vs brilliant is merely a preference and certainly no excuse for someone to price a coin into the next grade range or two!

 

I would be careful with any rare coin investment involving toned coins - First this could be a one way street as when it comes time to sell the huge premium you experienced buying will more likely evaporate when selling. Second these coins could develop unfavorable toning in the holders over time as the surfaces continue to react with the atmosphere.

 

 

[kryptonitecomics]

While I can see superb toning carrying a premium of say 10 - 50% it is an absurdity for sellers to ask much more than this. It is certainly a ripoff when sellers are asking multiples of a coins market value simply for toning. There are many mullet collectors out there who will pay this without realizing when it comes time to sell they are looking at bluesheet. Toned coins vs brilliant is merely a preference and certainly no excuse for someone to price a coin into the next grade range or two!

 

I would be careful with any rare coin investment involving toned coins - First this could be a one way street as when it comes time to sell the huge premium you experienced buying will more likely evaporate when selling. Second these coins could develop unfavorable toning in the holders over time as the surfaces continue to react with the atmosphere.

 

 

 

I have to say while I can appreciate your opinion...most of what you said is false from a factual basis. I have been buying and selling toned coins for quite a few years and the toning premium is not and according to dealers specializing in toners for more than 30+ years has not gone away. If you pay way above what the market will support, as with any coin you can become burried and it will take you a long period of time holding a coin before you have a chance to sell it for what you paid.

 

As far at the coins developing unfavorable toning.....once a coin is removed from the environment and contaminants that toned the coin.....the toning virtually stops. While slabs are not completely air tight, for the most part a toned coin encased in one today.....will look exactly the same in 50 years.....100 years etc.....unless you don't store the slab with care and place the coin in say...the attic? These are not my theories....these statements are based on provable facts.

[MikeInFL]

Shane, What premiums did your toned coins fetch at auction? I remember it was a painful experience (and sorry for bringing it up), but was hoping you could share some of what you learned with the rest of us.....Mike

[kryptonitecomics]

Shane, What premiums did your toned coins fetch at auction? I remember it was a painful experience (and sorry for bringing it up), but was hoping you could share some of what you learned with the rest of us.....Mike

 

 

I took an absolute beating using Heritage because of the bad photo's and all but 3 coins were sold in the online venue vs signature so all the buyers had to go by was crappy photo's that did not show off the color. I also overpaid for the vast majority of my toned coins the first time around becuase I didn't have a clue what the true market value was so.....be careful how you sell your coins and certainly make sure you have an idea of the fair market value.......this is the tough part but looking at completed auctions on Ebay and Heritage etc are a good point of reference now days.

 

I will tell you that had I sold my coins myself on Ebay at the same time, with my images.....I probably would have at least broke even with my sales. I say this becuase I sold about 25% of my collection on the B/S/T forums and I made a nice profit on about 85% of the coins so even if I lost some money on my overpriced coins.....I would have relized a lot more cash......another lesson learned

 

In conclusion....if you do purchase a coin for the fair market value at the time and can sell the coin in a venue like Ebay with your own images.......I tend to make rather large profits if I do say so for myself (thumbs u

 

So it's a good example both ways.....I learned what not to do as far as overpaying and I also learned what does work if I want to turn a profit selling toned coins

[TJ'S Coins]

So, to sum up the lessons to be learned:

 

1) Negotiate any toned coin that is multiples of fair market value.

2) Beware that it may take time and be difficult to recover the toning premium from many

buyers who may be unwilling to pay much, if any, premium on good coins.

3) When selling toned coins, imaging is one of the most important aspects in getting top

dollar.

4) Where possible sell them yourself through Ebay, private sale or B/S/T forums.

 

A question: If you have purchased a superbly toned coin from a reputable dealer for a larger premium over fair market value, will that dealer offer strong prices should you decide to sell or trade with them?

 

Am I missing anything here?

[kryptonitecomics]

1) Negotiate any toned coin that is multiples of fair market value. (You won't get many coins worth a darned if you are not willing to pay many multiples of guide to get the coin....)

 

2) Beware that it may take time and be difficult to recover the toning premium from many buyers who may be unwilling to pay much, if any, premium on good coins. ( I can buy a toned coin today and flip it for a quick profit if I like so again the key is that you have to pay fair market value at the time if you hope to profit or resell the coin for what you paid. There are plenty of collectors out there willing to step up to pay strong premiums for nicely toned coins. Those that don't actively buy and sell toned coins would have you believe that there is a small island somewhere in the Pacific where toning weenies reside but believe me.....there are a lot more of us then you think.)

 

 

 

[lehigh96]

1) Negotiate any toned coin that is multiples of fair market value. (You won't get many coins worth a darned if you are not willing to pay many multiples of guide to get the coin....)

 

2) Beware that it may take time and be difficult to recover the toning premium from many buyers who may be unwilling to pay much, if any, premium on good coins. ( I can buy a toned coin today and flip it for a quick profit if I like so again the key is that you have to pay fair market value at the time if you hope to profit or resell the coin for what you paid. There are plenty of collectors out there willing to step up to pay strong premiums for nicely toned coins. Those that don't actively buy and sell toned coins would have you believe that there is a small island somewhere in the Pacific where toning weenies reside but believe me.....there are a lot more of us then you think.)

 

 

 

Shane, I could not have said it better myself. Everyone tells me that rainbow toned coins are a fad that will someday end, and the prices will crash back down to bid price. However, I have never spoken to a collector of toned coins who ever believed they would someday get tired of their toners and switch back to blast white coins.

 

I believe that the prices may come down from their current level, but I have a very hard time believing that they will ever be worth bid price. The silver lining is that if I am wrong, I will have the opportunity to buy every rainbow toned coin I see.

 

If I ever see a coin like this with a price tag of $150, I would buy it quicker than Phil Helmuth calls with the nuts.

 

 

 

[MikeInFL]

1) Negotiate any toned coin that is multiples of fair market value. (You won't get many coins worth a darned if you are not willing to pay many multiples of guide to get the coin....)

Shane, I'm sorry, but as written, that's simply not true. There are many series where very attractively toned coins can be found for far less than "multiples", although perhaps we just define "worth a darn" differently.

 

 

 

2) Beware that it may take time and be difficult to recover the toning premium from many buyers who may be unwilling to pay much, if any, premium on good coins. ( I can buy a toned coin today and flip it for a quick profit if I like so again the key is that you have to pay fair market value at the time if you hope to profit or resell the coin for what you paid. There are plenty of collectors out there willing to step up to pay strong premiums for nicely toned coins. Those that don't actively buy and sell toned coins would have you believe that there is a small island somewhere in the Pacific where toning weenies reside but believe me.....there are a lot more of us then you think.)

I can't say I disagree with your conclusion, although I would be careful as your argument is succeptible to the "greater fools" theory (which didn't work too well in real estate or banking as of late).

 

Respectfully....Mike

 

 

[MikeInFL]

[if I ever see a coin like this with a price tag of $150, I would buy it quicker than Phil Helmuth calls with the nuts.

 

 

Lehigh,

 

I don't think anyone would argue that this coin is a $150 coin (well maybe Shane would so he could resell it on eBay and make a huge profit ). I think the question at hand is if a coin similar to that is (or should be) worth $300 (2x), $750 (5x), $1500 (10x), or $3000 (20x) that price.

 

Respectfully submitted....Mike

[lehigh96]

[if I ever see a coin like this with a price tag of $150, I would buy it quicker than Phil Helmuth calls with the nuts.

 

 

Lehigh,

 

I don't think anyone would argue that this coin is a $150 coin (well maybe Shane would so he could resell it on eBay and make a huge profit ). I think the question at hand is if a coin similar to that is (or should be) worth $300 (2x), $750 (5x), $1500 (10x), or $3000 (20x) that price.

 

Respectfully submitted....Mike

 

Mike,

 

My point is that there definitely are people who would argue that this coin is a $150 coin. Not only would they argue that, they would defend their position with the zeal of hyena at dinner. I have had people come right out and tell me that I am a fool for paying multiples of bid price for a damaged coin. That's right, they read Weimar White's book (COIN CHEMISTRY), consider toning damage, and would not pay a single cent over bid price simply because a coin has pretty toning. If that isn't enough, they will go on to say that the entire toned coin market is a fad (like parachute pants in the 80's) and that the fad will end and the toned market will completely collapse returning prices back to their rightful place, CDN Bid. They also usually say that only after the inevitable collapse comes will I realize what a fool I really am. If this had happened only once to me, I would write the guy off as a nut. But, several different people have expressed this to me over the years so I am convinced there are a group of people who vehemently support this position and I also believe that some are lurking right now!

 

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. The market might value this coin at 6X bid today, 4X bid next year, and 8X bid in ten years. The great thing about toned coins IMO is that they are all unique and whatever the current market price, the coin may be worth more to a collector who simply loves that coin.

 

BTW. I think it is very ironic that the author's last name is White. Morale of his book, toning is damage, dip it off. Despite his view on toning, I still think it is a book that any toning enthusiast should read.

 

Paul

[kryptonitecomics]

1) Negotiate any toned coin that is multiples of fair market value. (You won't get many coins worth a darned if you are not willing to pay many multiples of guide to get the coin....)

Shane, I'm sorry, but as written, that's simply not true. There are many series where very attractively toned coins can be found for far less than "multiples", although perhaps we just define "worth a darn" differently.

 

I can agree with the statement that we define worth a darn differently.....but I also agree that there are quite a few of the classic series where coins with amazing color don't bring multiples of guide......since I collect mainly toned morgans...maybe I should have quantified my response a little more

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Paul, I agree White's book is a must read for toning enthusiasts. If you ignore his thrust towards white coins (haha), he's got some very good info on the actual science of toning. All sorts of formulas, science, composition, etc., great for a science/physics geek like me.

[PCcoins]

I don't believe for a second that amazing toning is a fade at all. I believe it will continue to flourish with the competition of the Registry, as blast white coins of more modern issues can be easily acquired, for the most part. And with the help of the Internet, people can view these toned coins that they wouldn't normally see at your local coin shop.

 

But finding Top pop examples and high grade coins with toning that adds to the eye appeal is not a walk in the park. These coins are hard to find and most are safely locked away in collections. So with more collectors trying to acquire these beautiful pieces of art (as no two toned coins are the same) the prices will continue to rise with certain popular coins and stay up with highly collected series.

 

Personally I can't get enough of toned coins, and right now I really enjoy the thrill of hunting for Beautiful toned coins (mostly double mint sets) and then submitting the coins for grading myself! But I will certainly pay a premium for toned coins if it really floats my boat!

[dean1345]

I love toned coins and I believe it will not be a "fad". I also respect when a collector prefers blast white(silver) or red (copper). So if you run into any of those awful "toned" coins pm me and I will take them off your hands.

 

Dean