Interesting Motto Lettering On 1901-S $20

[Coagman]

Any ideas what may have caused this?

 

The motto looks like it was repunched, however, after 1866 when the motto was first used on double eagles, the motto was incorporated onto the master dies. The only year in which the motto was punched into the working die was 1866.

 

There is a hint of doubling on other areas of the reverse (peripheral lettering), but nothing as dramatic as the motto lettering. The obverse and reverse strike is weak, particularly in the central regions. Also, the coin has black debris scattered across the surfaces.

 

Any opinions welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

Very High Resolution Reverse Image

 

 

 

 

[bsshog40]

Now I don't know anything about these but if the Motto was incorporated into the master dies, maybe it had a little too much pressure on the die and the motto spread some?? Just guessing here!

[James_OldeTowne]

This sort of repunching and overpunching is standard fare on these large gold coins. Seems like pretty much every one exhibits some such characteristics

[michael]

CLASSIC Longacre doubling

 

interesting; in fact quite interesting but in the current market unfortunately doesnot translate into greater value

 

unlike state quarters if this coin was a clad state quarter then this coin would be talked about on the front pages of the coin rags and would be in rabid demand hence great value

[rexcat]

CLASSIC Longacre doubling

 

interesting; in fact quite interesting but in the current market unfortunately doesnot translate into greater value

 

unlike state quarters if this coin was a clad state quarter then this coin would be talked about on the front pages of the coin rags and would be in rabid demand hence great value

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u

[Conder101]

Yes it's Longacre doubling, unusual to see it this late. For most series it disappears in the 1890s, but I have seen it on some indian head cents after 1900.

[astrostu]

For the sake of someone not familiar with the term ... could someone provide a brief 1-3 sentence explanation of "Longacre Doubling?" (Other than just saying, "look at the picture in the original post," or "doubling that happened when Longacre was the Mint's sculptor/engraver."

[Just Bob]

For the sake of someone not familiar with the term ... could someone provide a brief 1-3 sentence explanation of "Longacre Doubling?" (Other than just saying, "look at the picture in the original post," or "doubling that happened when Longacre was the Mint's sculptor/engraver."

 

 

 

 

From what I have read, there are two theories:

 

One is that the sides of the punch used to place the designs on the master die were shaved to give the design more detail, leaving a lip. If the engraver struck the punch extra hard, the lip would be incused into the die, leaving a raised area on the working hub, and thus the coin.

 

The second theory is that once the design was punched, the engraver would go back over it, moving the punch slightly, to create a lip, which was supposed to help the metal flow into the die.

[Conder101]

Then there is my theory that the punching of the lettering and the devices deeply enough to show the shoulders of the punch was a deliberate method of providing a visual means of knowing when the surface of the die had been hubbed sufficiently or polished or basined properly, During hubbing, when the shoulders around the letters or devices started appearing the die was sufficiently hubbed. After hubbing and hardening the die has to be lapped or polished to remove oxides and surface irregularities from the hardening process. as the shoulders disappeared the person lapping the die knows thaose areas are sufficently lapped and the lettering and devices are a precise depth into the die. Areas that still show the shoulders need further work. With this method the person doesn't have to be precisely trained he just has to know to polish areas until the shoulder around the letters is gone. Helps prevent overpolishing.

 

So in short the shouldering was deliberate, and it's presence on the finished coin indicates an improperly finished die. This is supported by the fact that the coins it is seen on most often are those with very high mintages such as the Indian head cents, and those coins with incedibly short die lafe such as the three cent nickel and the five cent nickel coins. In both cases very large numbers of dies were needed by the coining department and the die shop simply couldn't keep up allowing partially finished or even unfinished dies to go to the production floor.

 

And if they weren't there deliberately, a simple polishing of the master die to remove them would have solved the problem. No shoulder on the master die, none on the working hubs , working dies, or coins.

[Coagman]

Condor, Michael, Rex, Bob—Thanks for the help.

 

J.T. Stanton in his 2004 primer on doubling wrote:

“Longacre” Doubling

This unofficial term is used to describe the doubling that is typical on many coins designed by Longacre. These include Indian cents, three cents nickel, and Shield nickels. His $1 and $3 gold designs also often exhibit this doubling. …almost all of the letters are doubled in that the secondary image appears on both sides of the letters. Some specialists believe this is caused by the shoulder of the punch penetrating the die, causing the secondary step. Others feel this is intentional, designed to help with the metal flow into the tight crevices of the die.

 

On this 1901-S $20, the motto lettering and stars underneath fit the characteristic “doubling” pattern described above.

 

If this coin were resubmitted, would NGC designate “Longacre” Doubling as a variety? Would the coin be submitted for the VarietyPlus service?

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Longacre doubling is not denoted on slabs. It is so common, and adds no premium, that it is not mentioned on a slab.

[Coagman]

Longacre doubling seems to be more common for Indian cents and Shield nickels, but I have not seen many examples with double eagle. The coin below is the only mention in the Heritage archives, but it is difficult to see the doubling on this coin due to the weak strike, wear and low-resolution image.

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=368&Lot_No=7178