AU 58

[Jp-migration]

I just got back a batch of 20 coins.

1..1945 Walking Liberty MS65...

2..1945 Walking Liberty AU58

3..1943 Walking Liberty AU58

4..1942 Walking Liberty AU58

 

I felt all these coins were MS65,under 10x they all look the same.

I have no doubt that NGC is correct as to grade.

What am I missing?

What do you do with an AU58?

Can an AU58 look better than an MS60 or 61 or 63 etc.

 

[DaveG]

Dave Bowers has repeated the saying (I think he attributed it to someone else), that "an AU-58 is an otherwise MS-63 coin with some rub".

 

As far as coins grading MS-65 or not, factors other than bag marks also affect the grade, such as strike and luster.

[RobertB]

In my opinion, trying to accurately grade walking liberty half dollars is like sticking your hand in the fireplace without getting burned. I have a hell of a time grading that series. You're probably in the same funk with the series as I am. Regarding the au58 grade though, try to remember, if the eye appeal is there, then you've won half the battle. AU58 coins are really uncirculated pieces that were either handled incorrectly at one point, came out of the mint hurting, or saw like a day or a few days at most circulating before they came to rest permanently. I like to think most AU58 pieces are just victims of poor handling.

 

The threshold from 58 to 63 is like nothing. It's so small in reality. I have no gripes about buying a AU58 piece if it has nice eye appeal and the price is right, than instead paying alot more for a MS60-63 piece. As far as future returns may go I feel confident about not losing money as AU55-58 pieces trade very well in my opinion, often at a discount.

 

You have to conclude if you're into coins for the hobby, investment, or both.

If investment is involved in any way then you should buy slabbed for a while, and get to as many coin shows as possible to view them slabbed until you're confident with your grading abilities in this series, and like I said, it seems to be a tricky series. Good luck.

[gmarguli]

Dave Bowers has repeated the saying (I think he attributed it to someone else), that "an AU-58 is an otherwise MS-63 coin with some rub".

 

That may have been true in the past, but the grading services killed the AU58 grade. Early on the coin had to look nice, yet have a slight rub. Now the coins can look like they were spent for a month and still get the AU58 grade. Many of the old AU58s are now in MS62 slabs.

[jom]

That may have been true in the past, but the grading services killed the AU58 grade. Early on the coin had to look nice, yet have a slight rub. Now the coins can look like they were spent for a month and still get the AU58 grade. Many of the old AU58s are now in MS62 slabs.

 

Yup, although I still occationally find a nice peice. It depends on the series however. I can find nice Buffalos occationally but trying to find Jimmy Hoffa is easier than finding a nice NGC graded AU58 Indian $5.

 

jom

[Oldtrader3]

I agree. Recently I am seeing many (what used to be IMHO) AU58 coins in MS62 holders. This is particularly true with gold coins. This is Bull Market gradeflation at work. Problem is, that when the market turns down again, you can not sell these overgraded coins. I personally, am much more comfortable keeping my grading standards consistant. At least that way, I know what inventory, in what grade that I have from month to month. Plus, I don't get confused (have senior moments) about what grading standards I am using this month.

[Conder101]

Recently I am seeing many (what used to be IMHO) AU58 coins in MS62 holders. This is particularly true with gold coins. This is Bull Market gradeflation at work. Problem is, that when the market turns down again, you can not sell these overgraded coins.

You won't be able to sell them to knowledgable dealers, but they will still sell on eBay to newbies and those collectors who just trust numbers. (and their name is Legion) They wll also sell rapidly to dealers at the value of the actual grade, and then agans flipped to the trusting masses. They will not be cracked out and sent in for downgrading.

[Jp-migration]

Thanks for the help with AU58 Walkers.

I could get a job at ACG since I always grade my coins two points high.

 

PS in the batch of 20 coins that I got back is a 1938-S Merc. MS67FB

[James_OldeTowne]

If you mean ACCURATELY graded AU-58, then I will take AU-58 over MS-60 and MS-61 anyday. Half the time, I'd take it over MS-62 as well. Again, this is if the coins are ACCURATELY graded.

 

Remember, AU-58 basically means the nicest possible virtually uncirculated UNC coin, whereas MS-60 means the WORST possible UNC coin, and MS-61 means just slightly better than the worst.

 

Here's a real live example: At the last show I did (Indianapolis), I sold a common-date barely circulated Proof Franklin half accurately graded PCGS PR-58 - - - - for TWENTY DOLLARS. That's ABOVE PR-64 TRENDS! Why? Because it looked nicer than some PR-65's. It was just an exceptionally attractive coin, despite the faintest evidence of rub.

 

The best bargains in all numismatics, I think are bust and seated coins ACCURATELY graded AU-58. You pick up those coins for less than MS-60 money, and you are doing good.

 

James

[jom]

If you mean ACCURATELY graded AU-58, then I will take AU-58 over MS-60 and MS-61 anyday. Half the time, I'd take it over MS-62 as well. Again, this is if the coins are ACCURATELY graded.

 

I have AU58's that can be compared to MS64's....

 

The reason for this is simple: The "grade" of a coin doesn't not necessarily equal the "quality" of the coin. So the if the rub or circulation marks do not effect the quality of the coin then it just comes down to how well the coin was manufactured. Which, of course, is just what you do when you grade an MS coin that doesn't have the rub. So the AU58 could end up being a steal from a quality vs. money stand point.

 

Same goes for the strike designation some coin series have. If the strike is a non-Full Whatever but the lack of detail doesn't effect the overall quality you could end up with a great coin at a fraction of the cost.

 

jom

[EVillageProwler]

There are lots of ChAU coins that are more accurately described as AU63's...

 

Technical grade != eye appeal

 

EVP

 

[Oldtrader3]

Condor, you are absolutely correct. When the market slows, these AU58/MS62 coins will be sold as AU58 and flipped as MS62 on EBay or other dealer venues. I had a 1934-S Peace Dollar several years ago that I sent to PCGS (5) times trying to get MS64 grade. The coin was a stone cold AU58++ with MS64 luster on 99% of the coin surfaces. There was a tiny rub about 3/64's of an inch in diameter high on Lib's cheek that made it an AU58. PCGS graded it AU58 every time. I have always wondered what happened to that coin. Even money says that someone got it into a MS holder eventually. I paid MS61 money for it because it was so nice!

[EZ_E]

I agree. Recently I am seeing many (what used to be IMHO) AU58 coins in MS62 holders. This is particularly true with gold coins. This is Bull Market gradeflation at work. Problem is, that when the market turns down again, you can not sell these overgraded coins. I personally, am much more comfortable keeping my grading standards consistant. At least that way, I know what inventory, in what grade that I have from month to month. Plus, I don't get confused (have senior moments) about what grading standards I am using this month.

 

Great post! Great thread!

 

Michael L. was just saying yesterday that the Walkers are one of the toughest coins to grade in ms because of weak strikes. Maybe the exception would be gold, i.e. the Indian quarter and half eagles.

[Jp-migration]

The three Walkers that got the AU58 are very strong strikes,I call them full head and hand.There must be a "rub" that did them in.

How do you see a "rub"?..

Is 10X strong enough?

I'll bet you don't see many CC dollars in AU58.

I've been around a long time but learned a lot from this post.

[Wihlborg]

JP,

 

Rub is when the luster is dulled or worn. It most commonly will happen on the high points of the design first and looks like a dull spot. It could be hard to recognize at first if you don’t know what it looks like, but if you rotate the coin under a light you will see the luster swirling around the surface of the coin and reflecting back at you. If there is rub on the coin you will see dull spots, again usually on the high points of the design, though it is possible to have rub in the fields of the coin. You should be able to first see these dull spots with the naked eye, and they can than be looked at closer with a 7x-10x loupe.

 

Rub is basically just what it says, an area where there was friction to the surface of the coin, and that friction wore away just a very thin layer of the coins surface, causing it’s luster in that area to be impaired.

 

John

 

[darktone]

JP, don't let this thread fool you into thinking all AU58's are of the same quality of MS63's..... because they are not. Sure a few AU58's are UNC but most do exhibit wear. The crackout guy's look over this stuff all the time for upgrades and I don't think too much escapes their eye's but if a deal is to be found it will be in the less expensive coins that don't really pay to regrade. As time goes on and you look at more coins you will get better at telling why a coin is graded AU. mike

[Oldtrader3]

I have to agree with Greg, that AU58 grading standards have slipped and many older AU58's are now in MS holders. The premise of the AU58 grade to begin with, was for coins which met every aspect for MS grading and luster, except a small rub would be AU58. That is not what is going on today.

[jom]

JP, don't let this thread fool you into thinking all AU58's are of the same quality of MS63's..

 

You are correct but I recently "downgraded" a date in my Eagle set to an AU58 from an MS63 example, saved $300 and got just as good a coin. Is it AU? Most certainly but I LIKE it better....

 

jom