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Fake 3 Leg Buffalo on Live Auction on eBay

Started by BankNote1,

23 posts in this topic

BankNote1

BankNote1

Posted
Posted

I found this 1937-D 3 Leg Buffalo nickel on eBay and I hear that you can't report auction houses on eBay for suspect coins!!! This coin might be a cleaned version of a 3 leg nickel but it sure looks fake to me! So I thought I would post it hear so the experts can tell me if it is good or bad. This is the third funny looking '37-D 3 leg Buff I have seen on eBay this week and I wasn't really looking for them.LeonardAuction

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Conder101

Conder101

Posted
Posted

I'd say it's bad. The rear leg seems too strong, the motto is strong and close the body and most of the buffalo hoof is gone and it shouldn't be. The raised lumps from the to th ground are not there (But the coin has been harshly cleaned which could have removed them.) I think comparison with a known genuine piece might show a positional difference in the mintmark as well.

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted

I know this may sound uncaring, but the harsh reality is that nothing will ever happen to eBay until enough people get $crewed.

 

Hopefully, someone will file a class action lawsuit against eBay. If this happens, I also hope that the plaintiffs and their attorneys will reject any and all offers to settle out-of-court because I would like to see the courts force them to change their policies.

 

Chris

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I know this may sound uncaring, but the harsh reality is that nothing will ever happen to eBay until enough people get $crewed.

 

Hopefully, someone will file a class action lawsuit against eBay. If this happens, I also hope that the plaintiffs and their attorneys will reject any and all offers to settle out-of-court because I would like to see the courts force them to change their policies.

 

Chris

Chris, what would you have Ebay do about this particular coin? Force the seller to have it authenticated before allowing him to offer it for sale? Force him to keep money in an escrow account until the winning bidder/buyer could have it checked out, if the buyer is so inclined?

 

It bothers me greatly when people get ripped off, even if they are partly to blame. But, while sometimes it's easy for me to feel that I know a seller has gone over the line, other times it's a lot more difficult to determine.

 

Edited to add: Also, do you want the same rules to apply to sellers such as the auctioneer in question, regardless of whether the items are also simultaneously offered for sale via Ebay?

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

Posted
Posted

About the only thing I see positive with this auction is that they have large enough images where an assessment can be made to give the potential buyer a heads up prior to placing a questionable bid on a questionable coin.

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jesbroken

jesbroken

Posted
Posted

I'm not at all a Buffalo Nickel expert or even know much about the error side of this coin issue, but this coin has been so harshly cleaned, I'm not sure one could tell for sure. Maybe I'm wrong. What about the doubling of LIBERTY, is that normal for this error coin?

As to Ebay being responsible for policing these auctions, the only thing they could reasonably do is demand any key coin be slabbed in one of their 'choice' TPG's. It is hard to decide whose word to take and by the time they got someone to investigate the coin who is capable the auction is over. I am in NO WAY defending EBAY who has so many negative issues that their could be a 24 volume Encyclopedia filled with their catalogued mistakes. I just think that some common sense should be at least offered to see how difficult the situation is. As long as our own U.S. Mint doesn't have a problem with faking key coins, it is kind of hard to police it legally. JMO

 

1937D3LeggedBuffaloNickelLeonardAuc.jpg

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

The only thing that can be done is to report the coin to Ebay as a counterfeit. However, Ebay will not do anything about a counterfeit coin even if it is reported. Ebay has shown absolutely no willingness recently, to consult with the ANA on suspect counterfeit coins and these counterfeits just end up just being sold like any other listed coin. I have given up on any hope of Ebay action regarding removal of listed counterfeit coins for sale.

 

The lawsuit against Ebay for not policing reported counterfeits of Tiffany merchandise has been refiled. I will watch with interest for the final judgment in this case. Of course if Ebay loses the suit filed by Tiffany & Company, they will appeal the ruling and the suit will languish in the appeals process forever.

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Coindude

Coindude

Posted
Posted

Although I haven't read all the comments here, all I know for sure is that this coin is not a 3 legger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the easiest way to know for sure is a die gouge or imperfection that make it look as if Black Diamond is answering the call of mother nature if you get my drift!

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jesbroken

jesbroken

Posted
Posted

The problem with the 'member' analysis, Coindude, is that it doesn't work well with XF and lower grade coins. As you can see it is not so noticeable on this NGC VF coin, whereas, with an MS coin it shows rather well as a defining factor.

 

Jim

 

1937DBuffalo3legcomparisonrawvsngc.jpg

 

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
I know this may sound uncaring, but the harsh reality is that nothing will ever happen to eBay until enough people get $crewed.

 

Hopefully, someone will file a class action lawsuit against eBay. If this happens, I also hope that the plaintiffs and their attorneys will reject any and all offers to settle out-of-court because I would like to see the courts force them to change their policies.

 

Chris

Chris, what would you have Ebay do about this particular coin? Force the seller to have it authenticated before allowing him to offer it for sale? Force him to keep money in an escrow account until the winning bidder/buyer could have it checked out, if the buyer is so inclined?

 

It bothers me greatly when people get ripped off, even if they are partly to blame. But, while sometimes it's easy for me to feel that I know a seller has gone over the line, other times it's a lot more difficult to determine.

 

Edited to add: Also, do you want the same rules to apply to sellers such as the auctioneer in question, regardless of whether the items are also simultaneously offered for sale via Ebay?

 

Mark, I don't want anyone reading this to be misled, so I am stating this at the outset. Forgive me if my response is filled with sarcasm.

 

Of course, we shouldn't expect eBay to suspend the listing and notify the auctioneer about the concern that the coin is a possible counterfeit. They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds.

 

Chris

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I know this may sound uncaring, but the harsh reality is that nothing will ever happen to eBay until enough people get $crewed.

 

Hopefully, someone will file a class action lawsuit against eBay. If this happens, I also hope that the plaintiffs and their attorneys will reject any and all offers to settle out-of-court because I would like to see the courts force them to change their policies.

 

Chris

Chris, what would you have Ebay do about this particular coin? Force the seller to have it authenticated before allowing him to offer it for sale? Force him to keep money in an escrow account until the winning bidder/buyer could have it checked out, if the buyer is so inclined?

 

It bothers me greatly when people get ripped off, even if they are partly to blame. But, while sometimes it's easy for me to feel that I know a seller has gone over the line, other times it's a lot more difficult to determine.

 

Edited to add: Also, do you want the same rules to apply to sellers such as the auctioneer in question, regardless of whether the items are also simultaneously offered for sale via Ebay?

 

Mark, I don't want anyone reading this to be misled, so I am stating this at the outset. Forgive me if my response is filled with sarcasm.

 

Of course, we shouldn't expect eBay to suspend the listing and notify the auctioneer about the concern that the coin is a possible counterfeit. They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds.

 

Chris

I have reported countless listings to Ebay over the years, but from the images, I am not convinced that the coin is a counterfeit. It very well might be, but I'm not any where close to certain. Curiously, how sure do you feel that whomever Ebay relies upon for expert opinions needs to be about a coin being counterfeit, for Ebay to pull a listing?
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EZ_E

EZ_E

Posted
Posted

I think that all key date coins with a value of [x] should be required to be slabbed (even in just a genuine holder) before being offered for sale.

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PerryHall

PerryHall

Posted
Posted
Although I haven't read all the comments here, all I know for sure is that this coin is not a 3 legger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the easiest way to know for sure is a die gouge or imperfection that make it look as if Black Diamond is answering the call of mother nature if you get my drift!

 

Yes. It's a die crack. Looks like he is peeing.

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
I know this may sound uncaring, but the harsh reality is that nothing will ever happen to eBay until enough people get $crewed.

 

Hopefully, someone will file a class action lawsuit against eBay. If this happens, I also hope that the plaintiffs and their attorneys will reject any and all offers to settle out-of-court because I would like to see the courts force them to change their policies.

 

Chris

Chris, what would you have Ebay do about this particular coin? Force the seller to have it authenticated before allowing him to offer it for sale? Force him to keep money in an escrow account until the winning bidder/buyer could have it checked out, if the buyer is so inclined?

 

It bothers me greatly when people get ripped off, even if they are partly to blame. But, while sometimes it's easy for me to feel that I know a seller has gone over the line, other times it's a lot more difficult to determine.

 

Edited to add: Also, do you want the same rules to apply to sellers such as the auctioneer in question, regardless of whether the items are also simultaneously offered for sale via Ebay?

 

Mark, I don't want anyone reading this to be misled, so I am stating this at the outset. Forgive me if my response is filled with sarcasm.

 

Of course, we shouldn't expect eBay to suspend the listing and notify the auctioneer about the concern that the coin is a possible counterfeit. They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds.

 

Chris

I have reported countless listings to Ebay over the years, but from the images, I am not convinced that the coin is a counterfeit. It very well might be, but I'm not any where close to certain. Curiously, how sure do you feel that whomever Ebay relies upon for expert opinions needs to be about a coin being counterfeit, for Ebay to pull a listing?

 

Mark, eBay has already demonstrated that they don't need solid evidence to pull a listing. Just ask James about it.

 

Chris

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds
Doesn't Ebay only make money if the winning bidder buys the item through Ebay, as opposed to a live floor bid, through an auction company's website, etc.? My earlier point was, if there is a concern about the genuineness of an item being sold by an auction house which utilizes "Live auction on Ebay", shouldn't you place the same or greater responsibility (and apparently contempt) on them as on Ebay? After all, at least the auctioneer has the opportunity to inspect the item in hand and is profiting more than Ebay (if Ebay even makes anything) on the sale?
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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds
Doesn't Ebay only make money if the winning bidder buys the item through Ebay, as opposed to a live floor bid, through an auction company's website, etc.? My earlier point was, if there is a concern about the genuineness of an item being sold by an auction house which utilizes "Live auction on Ebay", shouldn't you place the same or greater responsibility (and apparently contempt) on them as on Ebay? After all, at least the auctioneer has the opportunity to inspect the item in hand and is profiting more than Ebay (if Ebay even makes anything) on the sale?

 

I don't know how eBay earns money from live auctions, but they surely don't do it for free. Don't you think that eBay should maintain the highest standard of ethics? Shouldn't they maintain moral values beyond reproach? Let's face it, if it weren't for the buying public, there would be no eBay.

 

Yes, I would place, as much if not more, responsibility on the auctioneer, and I would deem his actions just as contemptible as eBay's. Of course, I would be assuming that eBay had notified the auctioneer. I have no way of knowing whether or not they did. All we do know is that complaints were filed with eBay.

 

Chris

 

 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds
Doesn't Ebay only make money if the winning bidder buys the item through Ebay, as opposed to a live floor bid, through an auction company's website, etc.? My earlier point was, if there is a concern about the genuineness of an item being sold by an auction house which utilizes "Live auction on Ebay", shouldn't you place the same or greater responsibility (and apparently contempt) on them as on Ebay? After all, at least the auctioneer has the opportunity to inspect the item in hand and is profiting more than Ebay (if Ebay even makes anything) on the sale?

 

I don't know how eBay earns money from live auctions, but they surely don't do it for free. Don't you think that eBay should maintain the highest standard of ethics? Shouldn't they maintain moral values beyond reproach? Let's face it, if it weren't for the buying public, there would be no eBay.

 

Yes, I would place, as much if not more, responsibility on the auctioneer, and I would deem his actions just as contemptible as eBay's. Of course, I would be assuming that eBay had notified the auctioneer. I have no way of knowing whether or not they did. All we do know is that complaints were filed with eBay.

 

Chris

 

What if the coin is genuine? How little in the way of accusations or proof is acceptable to you for a listing to be pulled? Regardless of whether the coin in question is genuine or not, I have seen many people question and/or report perfectly genuine coins.
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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds
Doesn't Ebay only make money if the winning bidder buys the item through Ebay, as opposed to a live floor bid, through an auction company's website, etc.? My earlier point was, if there is a concern about the genuineness of an item being sold by an auction house which utilizes "Live auction on Ebay", shouldn't you place the same or greater responsibility (and apparently contempt) on them as on Ebay? After all, at least the auctioneer has the opportunity to inspect the item in hand and is profiting more than Ebay (if Ebay even makes anything) on the sale?

 

I don't know how eBay earns money from live auctions, but they surely don't do it for free. Don't you think that eBay should maintain the highest standard of ethics? Shouldn't they maintain moral values beyond reproach? Let's face it, if it weren't for the buying public, there would be no eBay.

 

Yes, I would place, as much if not more, responsibility on the auctioneer, and I would deem his actions just as contemptible as eBay's. Of course, I would be assuming that eBay had notified the auctioneer. I have no way of knowing whether or not they did. All we do know is that complaints were filed with eBay.

 

Chris

 

What if the coin is genuine? How little in the way of accusations or proof is acceptable to you for a listing to be pulled? Regardless of whether the coin in question is genuine or not, I have seen many people question and/or report perfectly genuine coins.

 

How about beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Chris

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds
Doesn't Ebay only make money if the winning bidder buys the item through Ebay, as opposed to a live floor bid, through an auction company's website, etc.? My earlier point was, if there is a concern about the genuineness of an item being sold by an auction house which utilizes "Live auction on Ebay", shouldn't you place the same or greater responsibility (and apparently contempt) on them as on Ebay? After all, at least the auctioneer has the opportunity to inspect the item in hand and is profiting more than Ebay (if Ebay even makes anything) on the sale?

 

I don't know how eBay earns money from live auctions, but they surely don't do it for free. Don't you think that eBay should maintain the highest standard of ethics? Shouldn't they maintain moral values beyond reproach? Let's face it, if it weren't for the buying public, there would be no eBay.

 

Yes, I would place, as much if not more, responsibility on the auctioneer, and I would deem his actions just as contemptible as eBay's. Of course, I would be assuming that eBay had notified the auctioneer. I have no way of knowing whether or not they did. All we do know is that complaints were filed with eBay.

 

Chris

 

What if the coin is genuine? How little in the way of accusations or proof is acceptable to you for a listing to be pulled? Regardless of whether the coin in question is genuine or not, I have seen many people question and/or report perfectly genuine coins.

 

How about beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Chris

If you're going to require that there is proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" that a coin be counterfeit for it to be pulled, many questionable coins won't get pulled. For example, as I mentioned before, I'm not convinced that the coin in this thread is counterfeit. Yet, unless I misunderstood your tone and your words, you seem to think Ebay should have acted. So, I am admittedly confused. (shrug)
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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
Posted
They surely can't force the auctioneer or the auction company to pull the coin from the auction, and if the auction of the questionable coin proceeded, eBay would lose their fair share of the (ill-gotten) proceeds
Doesn't Ebay only make money if the winning bidder buys the item through Ebay, as opposed to a live floor bid, through an auction company's website, etc.? My earlier point was, if there is a concern about the genuineness of an item being sold by an auction house which utilizes "Live auction on Ebay", shouldn't you place the same or greater responsibility (and apparently contempt) on them as on Ebay? After all, at least the auctioneer has the opportunity to inspect the item in hand and is profiting more than Ebay (if Ebay even makes anything) on the sale?

 

I don't know how eBay earns money from live auctions, but they surely don't do it for free. Don't you think that eBay should maintain the highest standard of ethics? Shouldn't they maintain moral values beyond reproach? Let's face it, if it weren't for the buying public, there would be no eBay.

 

Yes, I would place, as much if not more, responsibility on the auctioneer, and I would deem his actions just as contemptible as eBay's. Of course, I would be assuming that eBay had notified the auctioneer. I have no way of knowing whether or not they did. All we do know is that complaints were filed with eBay.

 

Chris

 

What if the coin is genuine? How little in the way of accusations or proof is acceptable to you for a listing to be pulled? Regardless of whether the coin in question is genuine or not, I have seen many people question and/or report perfectly genuine coins.

 

How about beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Chris

If you're going to require that there is proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" that a coin be counterfeit for it to be pulled, many questionable coins won't get pulled. For example, as I mentioned before, I'm not convinced that the coin in this thread is counterfeit. Yet, unless I misunderstood your tone and your words, you seem to think Ebay should have acted. So, I am admittedly confused. (shrug)

 

Obviously they won't get pulled! GreedBay won't allow it.

 

The fact that the hoof appears to be missing, that part of the leg extending from the body is missing and the mound appears to be different is, to me, beyond a reasonable doubt. Add to that the fact that it has been harshly cleaned, and I think that was done intentionally to hide the alterations.

 

Chris

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

I sent a question to the seller and received a reply - please see both below. it doesn't prove anything, but...

 

" Dear seller,

Have you had a numismatic expert examine this coin? I ask because it appears that it might be a normal 1937-D which has been altered. Some of the characteristics do not seem to match those of a genuine 3 legged nickel."

 

"Dear ....

We have had several experts look at the piece and all believed it to be real. Thank you for your interest."

 

 

 

 

 

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