I spent the afternoon looking at some coins......

[bigd5]

Raw, slabbed, you name it. I was enjoying myself until I saw a fairly pricey coin, but it was in the "wrong" holder. I found myself passing on a coin I pretty much know I shouldn't have passed on. I acquired slab bias. The coin was a barber in pf/65 cameo, and it resided in a PCI gold label holder. The darn thing looked awesome. I kept looking at the coin and trying to figure out what I was missing. Was it worked on? What could they have done to this coin? I kept asking myself these silly questions over and over.

My thinking was that for this coin to be saleable, at a decent level, I would have to get it into a pcgs or ngc holder. I kept focusing on the downside of purchasing the coin (the upside would have been awesome!), if it came back in a bodybag. I figured even if it came back at a lower grade, I wouldn't lose THAT much on the coin, but the fear of the bodybag was overwhelming. I chickened out. Plain and simple.

 

Anyone else ever run into this? I'll usually buy just about anything considering what I think the grade is in relation to price, but this coin got to me.

[braddick]

Yes. I find myself second guessing more and more than if the same coin was raw, in a Dealer's flip.

 

I'm trying to get over doing that.

[Hoot]

I will look at and buy coins, expensive for me (up to a couple grand!) that are raw before I'll do the same with a coin in any holder but PCGS, NGC, or ANACS. And with ANACS graded coins, I look at them far more carefully than NGC or PCGS graded coins - now THAT'S JUST STUPID! I've bought dogs in every holder (sorry EVP ) and the bottom line is that you must always look, look, look. I think, however, at this point in my life, I'm more comfortable buying raw coins in the series I know best, but I'd never do that sight-unseen. I'm sure that a good analyst is necessary.

 

Hoot

[toyonakataro]

It's always frustrating for me to see a decent coin in wrong holder and I can't figure why.

[bigd5]

It's always frustrating for me to see a decent coin in wrong holder and I can't figure why.

 

Taro,

I think that's exactly it. WHY???? Why would someone put this coin in a PCI holder? Was it a collector (there are more collectors that use PCI and ACG than I think we all wish to know), or a dealer looking to get a bump, on a marginal coin.

I mean, what does a beautiful proof/65 barber quarter with impeccable mirrors and wonderful full cameo frost sell for?

If this coin would slab at NGC or PCGS, talk about homeruns?

It was probably a good buy even if I thought the coin was going to come back as a 4. I may end up with this coin, take a shot, and if it doesn't work out, don't feed the kids for a week or two

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

This is a great post as it highlights something that I'm sure most of us do, whether its unconscious of not, the slab affects our judgement...whether or not we buy the coin and not the slab.

 

About a month ago I noticed a substantial change in the listing habits of a seller on EBAY whom I've dealt with several times. He largely sells proof cameo coins from 1950 - 1969 and his listings were almost entirely composed of NGC and PCGS certified coins with some raw ones thrown in occasionally. The change I saw: most of his coins are now either raw or PCI with very little NGC or PCGS certified coins. So, I emailed to ask him what gives.

 

His response: after many years of dealing with both PCGS and NGC he felt that their grading standards had tightened so much of late that his submissions just weren't getting the grades and CAM/DCAM he felt they deservered. So he started to submit to PCI instead. While he still has some NGC/PCGS coins, a lot of his listings are now slabbed by PCI. I've looked at his coins and they do appear to be the real deal, for the grade given - but, since they're in PCI slabs I automatically discount at least 2 grade points and have serious doubts whether something identified as DCAM truly is.

 

I was just the high bidder on several early 50's proof quarters marked as DCAM. Even if they're only CAM's and are even close to the grade, I got them at firesale prices. Why? Most buyers are very hesitant to buy slabs from anything other than the top three. But, for the right price, I think coins in these slabs can be cherry-picked if you know what you're doing.

[Oldtrader3]

Actually at shows, often times that I would rather look at a raw coin than a slabbed coin (wrong slab or not). Under flourescent light, the refraction light off coin surfaces often does not show the true visual picture. Whereas, at least with a raw coin, you are looking at the actual surfaces instead of polarized light through the plastic (caused by injection molding stresses) that is attenuated by flourescent light.

[braddick]

This is a great post as it highlights something that I'm sure most of us do, whether its unconscious of not, the slab affects our judgement...whether or not we buy the coin and not the slab.

 

About a month ago I noticed a substantial change in the listing habits of a seller on EBAY whom I've dealt with several times. He largely sells proof cameo coins from 1950 - 1969 and his listings were almost entirely composed of NGC and PCGS certified coins with some raw ones thrown in occasionally. The change I saw: most of his coins are now either raw or PCI with very little NGC or PCGS certified coins. So, I emailed to ask him what gives.

 

His response: after many years of dealing with both PCGS and NGC he felt that their grading standards had tightened so much of late that his submissions just weren't getting the grades and CAM/DCAM he felt they deservered. So he started to submit to PCI instead. While he still has some NGC/PCGS coins, a lot of his listings are now slabbed by PCI. I've looked at his coins and they do appear to be the real deal, for the grade given - but, since they're in PCI slabs I automatically discount at least 2 grade points and have serious doubts whether something identified as DCAM truly is.

 

I was just the high bidder on several early 50's proof quarters marked as DCAM. Even if they're only CAM's and are even close to the grade, I got them at firesale prices. Why? Most buyers are very hesitant to buy slabs from anything other than the top three. But, for the right price, I think coins in these slabs can be cherry-picked if you know what you're doing.

Whereas PCGS takes up to two months to get coins back with PCI the return is within ten days to two weeks (consistantly). The same Blue toned proof Jefferson might go for $100.00 with PCGS but $15.00 with PCI (and, $35.00 with NGC) <---------Real prices I've experienced within the last month or so, by the way, as a seller.

Collectors, experienced or not, look at the coin THEN THE HOLDER and base a judgement on the latter instead of the former.

[GDJMSP]

I'm sure that a good analyst is necessary.

 

Hoot

 

Necessary ?? Without a doubt

 

But would it help ??

 

When ever someone ask the question - " why is that coin in that slab - what's wrong with it ? " I cannot help but think that what many of us who frequent these forums fail to remember is that there a great many more collectors out there that do not frequent them. Coin forums such as this one are a tremendous asset & source of knowledge. They allow a diverse spectrum of the collector community to share opinions about many subjects such as the differences between the grading companies.

 

But for those collectors who do not visit these coin forums - this knowledge and these opinions are simply not available. And to many of them - a grading company - is just a grading company. Whether we like to admit it or not - many, many collectors believe that all grading companies are equal. They have no idea that there is no independent supervision of the grading companies. They have no idea that there can be great differences between the grades of one as compared to the grades of another.

 

But when one of these collectors decides it is time to sell a part or all of their collections they may recall that it is best to have their coins graded & slabbed in order to realize the best prices. So they go shopping for a grading company. And what do most people do when they go shopping ? They compare prices.

 

As a result - many quality coins are submitted to grading companies that are considered inferior by those who frequent these coin forums. And they will hardly ever even look at a coin in such a slab. But these same people will often be among the first to say - buy the coin & not the slab.

 

Seems to me that such actions are just missed opportunities.

 

 

[TomB]

I understand your hesitation on the "wrong" holder and, although counterintuitive, I think there is a real basis for the gut feeling. It's true that the coin is the most important aspect of a coin purchase, but there are always other bits of information to process. In this particular case I cannot tell you whether or not the coin was problem-free or was in a PCI holder for a nefarious reason, but I can share with you an experience someone I know has gone through.

 

He bought two semi-key, bright white Washington quarters in green PCI holders. The coins looked quite nice and I also looked at them. They were a '35-D and a '36-D and both were graded MS62. I thought they looked like nice MS63 pieces and he was certain they were at least MS64. He stated he was going to send them to NGC and I suggested he leave them in the holders for a crossover, however, he broke them out of their holders and sent them in raw. They were bagged as wiped. He then sent them to PCGS and they were again bagged as wiped. At this point, I had the opportunity to see them again and I could tell instantly, once removed from the plastic, that they had been wiped. He lost.

[gmarguli]

While it is very true to wonder why an expensive coin is in a certain slab, there are several legitmate reasons. Many collectors are still fearful of giving their coins to a dealer to have them submit for them. The fear the coins will get switched or stolen. I can understand this to the tune of mid-5 figures! These people will submit their coins to the services that allow direct submissions. Mostly this is ANACS. Some GREAT deals can be found in ANACS slabs. I've had a higher percentage of ANACS coins cross at NGC/PCGS that any other service.

 

PCI advertises a lot in the mags and they have been around a long time. Many collectors that aren't up to date on current events think they are a reputable service. They are cheap and fast. Some nice coins will get into their slabs.

 

[EVillageProwler]

I didn't read through this entire thread carefully, but I want to comment on what Mark and Tom wrote:

 

I think we all must be objective about this, and that objectively should lead us to consider the strong likelihood that a "special" coin that is in an off-brand holder is that way for a reason. Especially if you see the coin in the inventory of someone who's not still wet behind his ears.

 

Objectively, we all should conclude that for those whose are selling, it is their intent to maximize both return and turnaround. For "special" coins, why leave 'em in off-brand holders when he who isn't wet behind the ears know better?

 

Finally, I am not surprised that many folks can view a coin in his area of specialization with greater confidence when raw than when entombed. Why? Because the plastic obfuscates. ICG, SEGS to name two TPGS's, have especially thick plastic that obfuscates the coin. NGC's newest slab is worse than before in this regard.

 

EVP

 

[sanmary]

Very, very true....a raw coin is SO much easier to critique than a slabbed coin. Perhaps, as you mentioned, coins in certain holders such as ICG holders just don't look as good...no matter the grade. Could it be their holder??? Also, how do ones coins look to them AFTER you return from the show? During the hustle and bustle of a coin show and the provided lighting there, do your coins not get critiqued better in the comfort of your home??