WYNTK----Reviewing Some Thoughts

[supertooth]

Because of the recent posts on both our chat boards and ATS, I thought it might be appropriate to sit down and review many of my thoughts concerning being a coin collector. These thoughts are not meant to offend anyone but just to bring certain facts into the light of day.

 

As many of you know, I keep repeating that you MUST leave your ego at the door, or, at least, put it into your back pocket. That includes any arrogance that you may possess. One must also remember that "any" educational degrees that you may have earned along life's path will be of only "minimal" value to you in the coin business.

 

Next is that you MUST learn to be humble---yes, humble. Most of us do NOT recognize our fraility in the coin world. We must start out on the coin ladder at the bottom---NOT at the top. In the coin world when we start out, we are infants. Everyone starts out at the beginning (ground level).

 

Lastly, remember to be patient. It does, in fact, take a lot of time to become knowledgeable and then, if lucky, and dedicated, to become a true numismatist.

 

Let me start this next part by saying that buying and reading a lot of coin books, magazines, etc. is "most" necessary. You simply MUST buy the knowledge contained in those books. You need the reference material and you can gain "very necessary" information about what you will be collecting. Why folks buy coins before they learn about them is a mystery to me sometimes.

 

Another thing is to simply look at a lot of coins before you buy a single one of them. I don't care if it means traveling through bourse floors at coin shows, walking the pages of coins through the e-Bay listings, or going to local coin shops or museums to see what they have to offer. But you MUST look at many, many coins. Look at them "raw" or look at them in third party graded holders---but LOOK at them. Buy a grading book and start to learn how to grade. Try to pick out what you think you might like to collect and then learn "all" you can about that series and how that series is priced depending on the condition (grading) of the coins. But, try to do most, if not all, of this, "BEFORE" you buy a single coin.

 

If you have been lucky enough to inherit a collection, do the necessary research. Buy a Red Book and a grading book. Do the research before you do anything else. If you were left a gold pocket watch, would you not research it before you attempted to sell it?

 

Another thing I often write is a phrase my grandfather taught me---that being to "never bet a man at his own game". If you attempt to do it, you will find out that you WILL LOSE. Remember, it does not matter whether we are talking about a lot of E--Bay sellers, coin dealers, third party grading services (be it NGC, NCS, PCGS, ANACS, SEGS, CAC, etc.). Anyone who attempts to sell you a coin, even the U.S. Mint, is trying to get you to part with your money, and the likelihood that they know more about the coin than you do, is almost 100% at the time you are starting to collect.

 

So, you must get good enough yourself to know whether you agree or don't agree with the grade that has been placed on the coin or on the slab insert. Believe me, it doesn't matter whose slab it is. True, some are better than others, but any of them should be looked at---with you buying the coin and "not" the slab or the grade on the insert.

 

If you are letting a dealer buy for you, or evaluate your purchases for you, how do you know if he or she is doing it correctly unless you are knowledgeable enough to tell yourself? And, watch out for the pictures. Simply put----don't trust them. As most of you know, they can be altered or fooled with in many ways. You need to see the coins in hand. While you can get an idea from a picture, it is just that---an idea. You need to see most all coins in hand to be 100% sure of what the coin really represents.

 

Your goal in collecting---IMHO---is to become knowledgeable enough to be as good as, or better than, the folks who are attemtping to sell you their coins. This does not mean that you can't have some friends who help you along the way of knowledge; but what it does mean, is that you MUST be responsible for learning what you really need to know. In the end, you should trust NO ONE but yourself. The higher the price of the coins that you get yourself into, the more it is imperative to "be as good as they are", no matter who the "they" may be. Remember, it is YOUR money that will go into THEIR pockets.

 

All the while that you are learning, ask questions. One of the most important questions to ask is so that you can find out about coin cleaning. Ask about "hairlines"---what they are---how to identify them---how they affect the coin and its value. Most folks are simply STUPID---yes, STUPID. Before you flame me, let me first tell you that I am still stupid myself sometimes. The goal should be to climb the educational ladder so that you are no longer stupid. Maybe some of you would like "uneducated" better than stupid? In any event, as you get better, it's like going through the grades at school. Remember how you felt at certain points along the way, only to find out that as you progressed, there was always more to learn and you saw that others were indeed smarter than you were, no matter how high your educational degrees!!

 

Well, so it is in the coin business. Do you think as a grade-schooler that you can compete with someone who already has a high school diploma? Or, if you have a college degree, can you compete with someone who has a post-graduate degree? Only as you advance in years of education, can you ever hope to be able to break even with folks who depend on coins for their livelihood. Remember, no matter who you are dealing with, they are taking "your money" for a coin or a service. They are feeding themselves, their kids and grandkids and their IRA's or 401k's etc. with that money that you are giving to them.

 

Responsibility is necessary for you to understand. Don't ever blame someone else. No one but you pushes the buttoms on your computer. No one but you reaches into your wallet at a coin shop or bourse floor. No one but you says, "I'll take it" and then writes the check once the coin is received. No one but you SHOULD be responsible for your decisions, and if you choose to make bad decisions because you are ill prepared or ill informed, it is NO ONE'S responsibility but yours. Now it may be true that if you have been lied to, certain allowances might need to be made, but, even then, you should have trusted less, been better educated yourself, and researched better than you did.

 

Now, since we are on the NGC chat boards, I will use them in what I have to say next. These graders are pros---"true pros". If you think otherwise, I suggest you re-evaluate yourself and what you think that you know. I know that I have had to do that a few times over the years.

 

NGC teaches by what they do---or don't do---with your coins. Oh my, but what an educational process this becomes. As you learn, you will become better acquainted with what is acceptable and what is not. Certainly it is expected that they "might" make a few mistakes along the way. But under MOST circumstances, these graders are earning their salaries. Remember folks, it is their business to them---NOT a part time hobby.

 

Those of us who have received their wrath by getting coins back in BB or NCS coins back in details graded slabs, I have a piece of advice for you. Instead of blaming the graders, look to your own lack of ability. No one likes to be told that either they or their coins don't measure up. But, allow me to tell you from my own learning process that these guys do know what they are doing. As I have advanced myself, I now laugh at how dumb I used to be. Being self-taught is tough. But, as I have gotten better, it becomes even more apparent that what NGC has done to me HAS HELPED to educate me. Although they don't talk directly to me, they have very much talked to me in what they have done with and to my coins. These days I can, with some degree of certainty, tell you what I will get back from either NGC or PCGS---BEFORE I send them the coins. At one time years ago, that would have been impossible. So if you get hit in the head with that 2x4, don't do anything but "find out why". Believe me, it is there, but it is YOUR job to find it out. You simply MUST educate yourself somehow. Once you find out the reasons, then you have climbed up a rung on the educational ladder.

 

One last point, as I have talked too long already. That is, don't be a fool. What is it? "A fool and his money are soon parted." You have a choice in this coin business. Either become knowledgeable and protect your involvement in the hobby, or fail yourself and be taken to the cleaners. It's entirely up to you. Give yourself some credit if it turns out well, but blame no one but yourself if it turns out badly.

 

Contrary to what you may think that you are getting out of this post, if you do it well, you can have the MOST FUN by doing it correctly. That sense of achievement will indeed be there for you.

 

Study, study and study some more. There will always be a test given soon to find out how well that you are doing in the hobby. I wish continued success to all of you. Bob [supertooth]

 

 

 

[jesbroken]

Thank you Bob for your effort. I wish I had read this 40 years ago! If only half of what you have written is absorbed by new collectors you will have done them a serivce they could not have paid for, but would have paid twenty times for without(does that make sense?)

Thanks again.

Jim

[tonidanzawillpay]

awsome post thanks bob (thumbs u

[rbrown4]

Bob,

 

Very well put and presented for all of us, thank you for your sharing of your opinions and thoughts surrounding this hobby and what we all experience or are faced with.

 

A very good informative post.

 

Rey

[jgrinz]

What can one say after a dissertation like that except ...

 

:golfclap: :golfclap: :golfclap: :golfclap:

[murty]

Thanks for the article.Not only well written but very informative. I hope some of the younger members will take the time to read AND absorb the incite you have given.

Murty

[bsshog40]

Thanks for the post Bob. I have learned alot here in the past couple years and have learned alot thru unknowledgeable buying. I'm still not a pro and there are too many people trying to "Rip" you as we speak. Great post!!!

[stinkycheese1]

Great post !

 

I've heard also that you need to laern from BB's. Right now I'm reading books on general history of numismatics, conder101 was kind enough to loan me one of his books. And I bought another book on its way, can't wait to start reading!

 

[Dcoin]

here! here!

[physics-fan3.14]

Very good advice for beginners, and a good review and reminder for those of us a little more seasoned.

[WoodenJefferson]

As a fellow collector who has paid some dues and to this day is still learning, I have nothing to add other than this is a total reinforcement of what we as collectors must respect.

 

Thank You Bob

 

~Woody~

[EZ_E]

Bob, you were using the word "stupe..." when you should have used "ignorant" instead. I reckon that the reason you didn't know that was 'cause you were ignorant of the difference.

 

I think that what I've learned most in the past 6 years as a collector is that it is best to get focused on a collecting specialty early in the game. Me, I chose US type coins as my bread and butter. Instead of taking a shotgun approach and buying a little of everything that you may fancy, It is best to learn first as Bob stated! If you don't then I promise you 100% that you will either loose hundreds or even thousands of dollars by buying problem coins that you can't recognize as such or even overgraded slabbed coins (This is one time that CAC can be considered a major asset, when a rookie sets out to buy coins.)

 

Find a mentor, climb the learning scale and go for it.

 

Still, our personalities as collectors allow us to enjoy all aspects of the hobby. I also like to collect silver dollar sized silver coins and medals, modern commems and so called dollars. So, I'm not completely boxed in by only buying type. However, this hobby is not cheap and few can afford to continue to branch out in all areas and expect to actually complete a set or series.

 

Also, don't be a chump. Use common sense and research prices. Magazines, adds and infomercials bombard us with way overpriced coins.

 

As I've matured as a collector, I've found myself moving away from the modern US MInt glitter like proof sets, mint sets, etc. Sure, occasionally someone gets lucky and gets a nice price appreciation like on the 1999 and 2001 silver proof sets but that doesn't happen often. I recently sold all of my proof sets and other glitter since they take up so much room and hold very little room to appreciate. OK, cladking, flame away!

[TJ'S Coins]

I have been guilty of many of the stupid things that you cite in your well written article. It is truly humbling to learn how stupid I have been on coins I thought were great deals. The learning curve may be steep and at times costly, but there are no shortcuts in coins or anything valuable in life. Bob your words are well written and humbly received by one has been a fool more than once in this hobby. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and hard earned experience with us. That is what makes you such a valued poster and contributor to these boards. May we read, mark learn and take your words to heart!

[harvey8542]

SUPER post

[D.D.]

Great post Bob (thumbs u

[Coin]

Bob , true information for just about any subject . Until we gain true knowledge of a subject or area , we are all ignorant of the facts or subject . The approach to any subject should be with a proper attitude towards learning .

If a stumbling hap-hazard approach with low results is taken....then why bother at all ?

Without a proper mind-set ( 'got to be open to recieve' or 'fail to plan ; plan to fail )...what is there to be gained?

 

Also , about being humble.....We had a saying in the Army : 'No Thin Skins'...which translates to : don't be taken aback if the information or feedback you get sometimes hurts....stand up , take it , learn from it, improve and move on .

( BTW for those that collect odd info ...vehicles and targets are described with the term 'thin skin' when it has very little or no armour - like a private car versus a main battle tank...it is very easily penetrated and destroyed ....so don't take the advice/feedback/results and get angry and explode...learn from it and do it better next time) (thumbs u

-John

As collectors , hobbyists , investors , or a mix ...we should all take the time , every now-an-then to self-evaluate ourselves , even seek external evaluations , with regard to how we are progressing or keeping to our goals .

[IGWT]

Ignore Bob's advice at your own peril. I know I have. Great post filled with fundamental truths that we too often forget.

[rrantique]

Superb post Bob. Thanks for sharing.

[tenacious]

 

 

Excellent post supertooth! Thank you!

 

I especially like:

 

Your goal in collecting---IMHO---is to become knowledgeable enough to be as good as, or better than, the folks who are attemtping to sell you their coins.

 

[just-john]

Great post it's all about the learning or the journey we take as we learn.It never ends

when and if you think it has? Be ready to be hit by the stupid stick again and again.Think when

you start to feel like you know something when you can look back at some of your early stupid mistakes shake your head and smile.That's a sign your learning I shake my head often

but am aware that that stupid stick is still out there waiting for me.

[Oldtrader3]

Bob, good post and great read. I have been collecting for a long time and have made my share of mistakes along the way. I have kept a few of these errors or misjudgments on my part to remind me of how easy it is to be fooled in this hobby. Also, putting trust in supposed expert, dealers and buying raw their coins can be a big mistake and this is an area where I have made the biggest mistakes in my collecting. These raw coin purchase errors have cost me more money than with any other coins I have owned. I have learned that if any coin is not slabbed and I can not look at it personally, in good light before I buy it, don't buy it!

 

These "expert" large dealers only vested interest is in making money, not satisfying small potatoes customers, like me. I have had a major dealer that I have dealt with for many years sell me a PCGS, MS65, Saint with all the buzz words and lauding to the heavens, that they could muster, in the description when selling. Then later, have the same dealer turn around and bite me by listing the same coin as "MS65, but having a major rub" (which I disagreed with) when I had that dealer list the coin for sale in an auction. I pulled the coin from the auction and berated the dealer for that little turnabout, backstabbing but it still cost me money. This incident was probably the final straw in trusting dealers who have a vested, monetary interest in what they are telling you when they are selling, versus how the treat you going the other way when you are a seller.

 

My wife occasionally reminds me that she thinks that I am crazy to collect coins, based on how many con artists and pitfalls there are in this hobby. She is correct in her assessment, as usual, but I still love to collect coins. The best advice, is always maintain a healthy skepticism when someone is trying to sell you something.

 

I called a large auction house a few weeks ago regarding a puttied gold coin that was cataloged and pictured in one of their auctions. The company's auction director called me back later and admitted that the coin was puttied or doctored in some manner and that the coin was also overgraded in the slab, but they had not bothered to list these defects in the auction catalog and they sold the coin anyhow. It really pays to be skeptical when being sold anything!