So, what is a "rip"?

[MarkFeld]

In another thread, MikeInFl brought up the question, or at least I think that's what he was asking.

 

Either way, in my view, a "rip" is an ambiguous term. For example, if a dealer buys a coin at $900 and sells it for $1100, most people wouldn't even contemplate the possibility that it was a "rip". But what if the dealer buys a coin for $900, knowing that there are numerous sight-unseen bidders at $1100? That might be a "rip".

 

What if a dealer buys a coin for $25 and sells it for $50? He makes a 100% mark--up, but only $25 - is that a rip?

 

What if a dealer pays "graysheet" ask for a coin (which is worth 50% more in the next higher grade), but it's so obviously under-graded that anyone with a clue would agree the assigned grade is at least a point too low. Is that a rip?

 

How would you define a "rip"?

[okbustchaser]

None of your examples constitute rips. It has absolutely nothing to do with amount (or percentage) of markup. A "rip" only occurs when misrepresentation (by either party) is present.

 

Edit to add: Your third example has the most rip potential--but, even then only if the seller insists that the coin is properly graded.

 

 

[coinman1794]

I don't think you can have a blanket rule for what constitutes a rip, because there are so many factors that play into the decision. However, it's very easy, I think, to judge on a case by case basis.

 

An offer of 50% of value is a rip in most cases.

 

$900 is pretty close to $1100, so I wouldn't consider that a rip on a retail basis. But if the sight-unseen rate is $1100, you are obviously undercutting someone at $900 in order to make your profit selling to a dealer at $1100. Why not just pay the $1100 and sell it to a collector for the going rate? That way, everyone wins. It isn't necessary for you to try to make your money at the seller's expense. If you don't think you have a market for the coin if you pay the going rate of $1100, why are you trying to buy it? Buy something else!

[MarkFeld]

None of your examples constitute rips. It has absolutely nothing to do with amount (or percentage) of markup. A "rip" only occurs when misrepresentation (by either party) is present.

Based on comments I have heard from numerous dealers over the years, a "rip" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "misrepresentation". As far as I'm concerned, if I (without misrepresenting anything,) buy a coin for $500 and I know it's worth $1000, that's a "rip".

[okbustchaser]

None of your examples constitute rips. It has absolutely nothing to do with amount (or percentage) of markup. A "rip" only occurs when misrepresentation (by either party) is present.

Based on comments I have heard from numerous dealers over the years, a "rip" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "misrepresentation". As far as I'm concerned, if I (without misrepresenting anything,) buy a coin for $500 and I know it's worth $1000, that's a "rip".

 

Then, does cherrypicking a dealer constitute a rip? It shouldn't make any ethical difference what side of the counter the buyer stands on. Buying a $1000 coin for only $500 is either ok from both sides or it is a "rip" from both sides of the counter.

[agentjim007]

How would you define a "rip"?

 

I consider it anytime I can immediately sell a coin for more than I paid.

 

My wife considers it that annoying odor that I never admit to.

[MarkFeld]

None of your examples constitute rips. It has absolutely nothing to do with amount (or percentage) of markup. A "rip" only occurs when misrepresentation (by either party) is present.

 Quote:

Based on comments I have heard from numerous dealers over the years, a "rip" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "misrepresentation". As far as I'm concerned, if I (without misrepresenting anything,) buy a coin for $500 and I know it's worth $1000, that's a "rip".

 

Then, does cherrypicking a dealer constitute a rip? It shouldn't make any ethical difference what side of the counter the buyer stands on. Buying a $1000 coin for only $500 is either ok from both sides or it is a "rip" from both sides of the counter.

Buying a $1000 coin for $500 is a "rip", regardless of who buys it or from whom.By the way, I just did a a web search for a definition of "rip", and the first one I found follows below. Although somewhat ambiguous, I think it's probably as good as any:"A numismatic purchase that is bought substantially below the price for which it can be resold".

[okbustchaser]

Mark, I can accept that definition of a rip. I guess that my real problem with calling any transaction a rip is the differing conotations of the word depending on whether the seller is a dealer or a collector.

 

People want to hang a dealer in effigy if he rips a collector, but if that collector rips the dealer they congratulate him. I don't understand why it is ethical--even desirable--one way and considered just short of grand theft (and often not even short of it) on the other side.

 

This is why I don't consider any transaction between a knowledgeable buyer and a knowledgeable seller as a rip unless actual misrepresentation occurs.

[braddick]

Defining a RIP is like trying to define pornography. You know it when you see it.

[gmarguli]

Defining a RIP is like trying to define pornography. You know it when you see it.

 

Pornography is easy to define. It's obscenity that is difficult.

[MarkFeld]

Mark, I can accept that definition of a rip. I guess that my real problem with calling any transaction a rip is the differing conotations of the word depending on whether the seller is a dealer or a collector.

 

People want to hang a dealer in effigy if he rips a collector, but if that collector rips the dealer they congratulate him. I don't understand why it is ethical--even desirable--one way and considered just short of grand theft (and often not even short of it) on the other side.

 

This is why I don't consider any transaction between a knowledgeable buyer and a knowledgeable seller as a rip unless actual misrepresentation occurs.

Jim, I think that collectors are congratulated, while dealers are (pun intended) ripped for rips, because of the expected/perceived expertise of the dealers. As "professionals" they are often held to a different standard of knowledge and conduct and it is thought that they "should know better". Of course we know that in many cases, it is the collectors who are more knowledgeable.

[Tradedollarnut]

 Originally Posted By: okbustchaser

Mark, I can accept that definition of a rip. I guess that my real problem with calling any transaction a rip is the differing conotations of the word depending on whether the seller is a dealer or a collector. <br /><br />People want to hang a dealer in effigy if he rips a collector, but if that collector rips the dealer they congratulate him. I don't understand why it is ethical--even desirable--one way and considered just short of grand theft (and often not even short of it) on the other side.<br /><br />This is why I don't consider any transaction between a knowledgeable buyer and a knowledgeable seller as a rip unless actual misrepresentation occurs.

Jim, I think that collectors are congratulated, while dealers are (pun intended) ripped for rips, because of the expected/perceived expertise of the dealers. As "professionals" they are often held to a different standard of knowledge and conduct and it is thought that they "should know better". Of course we know that in many cases, it is the collectors who are more knowledgeable.

 

How about when a collector rips another collector?

[jesbroken]

Mark, let me get this straight. If a buyer purchases an item from a seller for $100 and he feels it is definitely worth $200, then he has "ripped" the seller? While this may sound all warm and gushy, I do not believe that a one digit percentage of people on or off this board would live by that code. Cherry picking would just be a nice word for "Rip".

Now, I wholeheartedly agree that if I offer a person $100 for a coin I know is worth $200, then that would be a "Rip" on my part if the sale goes down or a potential for a rip if it is denied. Not if a seller offers the coin for $100. #1, the seller may know something I do not. #2, the seller may be in a pinch for money and trying to sell at any price. #3, its not my business what or why the seller is offering this coin at the low price that they are. I have been told many times by buyers--they cannot price my coins, I must do that and then live by it. JMHO

Jim

[okbustchaser]

How about when a collector rips another collector?

 

You're fair game for everyone.

[Tradedollarnut]

Bring it on!

[MarkFeld]

Mark, let me get this straight. If a buyer purchases an item from a seller for $100 and he feels it is definitely worth $200, then he has "ripped" the seller? While this may sound all warm and gushy, I do not believe that a one digit percentage of people on or off this board would live by that code. Cherry picking would just be a nice word for "Rip".

Now, I wholeheartedly agree that if I offer a person $100 for a coin I know is worth $200, then that would be a "Rip" on my part if the sale goes down or a potential for a rip if it is denied. Not if a seller offers the coin for $100. #1, the seller may know something I do not. #2, the seller may be in a pinch for money and trying to sell at any price. #3, its not my business what or why the seller is offering this coin at the low price that they are. I have been told many times by buyers--they cannot price my coins, I must do that and then live by it. JMHO

Jim

Jim, yes, in my opinion, if a buyer buys a $200 coin for $100 it is a "rip", regardless of whether the buyer is a collector or dealer and regardless of whether the seller is a collector or dealer. Edited to add: And it doesn't matter whether the buyer makes an offer that is accepted or the seller quotes a price that is accepted. Intent doesn't define "rip" - it's all about the price paid vs. what the coin is "worth".In the eyes of some, when a dealer buys a coin "substantially below the price for which it can be resold" the word "rip" applies and has a negative connotation. But when a collector does the same, it's called a "cherry-pick" instead, and the collector is to be congratulated? Call it and color it as you see fit, but either way, it's a "rip".

[WoodenJefferson]

I was watching Antiques Roadshow the other night, and this lady brought in this rather small vase to have an appraiser take a look at it to determine if it was worth anything.

 

Well, the expert looked it over asked what she paid for it and she responded “$5 at a garage sale.” In disbelief the experts agreed it was from the, quote "the Arts & Craft era” was produced by so and so and had a value of at least $500. You already know the usual response from the persons as “WOW”

 

Now, did the garage sale buyer rip off the person who had it for sale for $5 or does prior knowledge of a product come into play to make it a bonefide “RIP” in the first place? Or, does it evolve into a “RIP” when the true value or the resale value become more when appraised or re-sold?

 

 

 

[okbustchaser]

No rip involved here at all. (Well, possibly by the original owner who tried to palm off what to her was simply trash for cash.)

[jgrinz]

 

 

I would add to the definition by Mark to state 'A numismatic purchase that is bought substantially below the price for which it can be resold at a substantially HIGH profit' - That to me is a rip.

 

This can happen on BOTH ends of the spectrum BUYER or Seller / Dealer Or Collector and so on ... Knowledge is the power ... whether ethics are involved is another matter I think

 

 

[prudden]

How about auctions? Getting a $200 coin for $50 or $60. Is that a rip?

[MarkFeld]

 

 

I would add to the definition by Mark to state 'A numismatic purchase that is bought substantially below the price for which it can be resold at a substantially HIGH profit' - That to me is a rip.

 

This can happen on BOTH ends of the spectrum BUYER or Seller / Dealer Or Collector and so on ... Knowledge is the power ... whether ethics are involved is another matter I think

 

Mike, that definition seems redundant. Before you modified it, it already included language that read "bought substantially below the price for which it can be resold". I don't see how adding "substantially HIGH" is necessary or adds anything, as that is already covered by the original definition.

[MikeInFL]

I'll ask the same question again (slightly differently this time), what's the difference between buying with room to profit and a rip? It seems a fine line....

[MarkFeld]

Edited/deleted due to duplicate post.

[jgrinz]

Well not really as I buy somethings off of here for the intent of reselling for a quick 10-15-20 percent mark up -- I do not feel I ripped off the seller here I just knew the market would hold more than what the seller was selling it for.

[MarkFeld]

I'll ask the same question again (slightly differently this time), what's the difference between buying with room to profit and a rip? It seems a fine line....

Mike, I agree that it's a fine line and feel that the term is inherently ambiguous. I also believe that a "rip" can be either intentional or accidental, though most people seem to use it to represent an intentional act.

 

 

[jgrinz]

ATS it is a plateau for those there to attain the Ultimate rip !

 

It is spoken of all the time there.

 

TO make it a game I think makes it 'dirty' or 'Unethical' whatever

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Well not really as I buy somethings off of here for the intent of reselling for a quick 10-15-20 percent mark up -- I do not feel I ripped off the seller here I just knew the market would hold more than what the seller was selling it for.

I still don't see how that's not already covered by the original definition or how the one you proposed changes things.

 

Also, I think a person can get a "rip" without even knowing it or having the intent to "rip off" the seller.

[Oldtrader3]

I think that a "Rip" includes collectors as well as dealers. After all, the difference in many cases, between a dealer and a collector is a vague area anyway. I like the dictionary definition, which does not discriminate between a dealer and a collector.

[jgrinz]

 Originally Posted By: jgrinz

Well not really as I buy somethings off of here for the intent of reselling for a quick 10-15-20 percent mark up -- I do not feel I ripped off the seller here I just knew the market would hold more than what the seller was selling it for.

I still don't see how that's not already covered by the original definition or how the one you proposed changes things.

 

Also, I think a person can get a "rip" without even knowing it or having the intent to "rip off" the seller.

Its probably your ability to 'read between the line' kinda thing which I am not comprehending ... I will shut up now.I still dont like it as a 'game' they play ATS ...Peace!

[MikeInFL]

I think that the answer lies at least in part in the price of the coin in question. As Mark correctly points out, a 100% profit on a $25 coin is far different from a 100% profit on a $10k coin (at least in my eyes).