Toning on Brown Uncirculated Indian Head Cents

[gynandroidhead-migration]

Hello,

 

I know this is not easy since I do not have images, but I will do my best.

 

About two months ago I looked at a group of what I believed were glossy, brown uncirculated Indian Head (Bronze) Cents from about 1883-1907. They were purchased from the woman's father from about 1976-1980. Most of the coins have a violet/blue toning (no pink). To the best of my knowledge they are not proofs even though the strikes were good.

 

I know this kind of toning occurs on proofs, but can it occur on business strikes as well? The probability that this guy did this to the coins is zero, and he bought them from several different buyers.

 

I will have pictures in about a week for a more definitive answer.

 

Thanks for all your help,

 

Greg

[JKK]

I do not see why it wouldn't be possible on business strikes. The planchet's made of the same material; a proof strike simply creates a sharper impression on the planchet. Toning is the reaction of some outside substance with the planchet.

[gynandroidhead-migration]

With early copper, the presence of blue or violet on a business strike is almost always a "no-no." That color exists on proofs because of the special preparation of the planchets and the friction caused between strikings.

 

Keep in mind that Half Cents are not bronze, so that's why I posed my original question.

 

Also, is there a premium on these coins when they are toned like this (as long as it's original?)

 

Greg

[MarkFeld]

I know this kind of toning occurs on proofs, but can it occur on business strikes as well?

It can occur on business strikes, as well, but it does so far less frequently than on Proofs. Do you know how they've been stored?

[TomB]

I don't believe planchet preparation or friction has anything to do with the colors found on proof coinage. Rather, typical storage conditions were vastly different and these conditions promoted the appearance of color via oxidation. Without images it is truly impossible to tell about these MS coins, but they may have all been treated with something years ago to impart the color or may have simply been stored in a similar manner that promoted the toning.

[Oldtrader3]

I have seen and owned many older EAC, Lincoln and Indian Head, RB or BN, cents which have areas of violet or blue toning, usually on the higher parts of the devices. I do not believe that this toning was deliberately caused by exposure to the chemicals in MS70. Blue or Violet toning (especially) seems prevalent on older dated RB or BN cents which have been stored raw for long periods of time in a coin cabinet and have been exposed to wood vapors and contact with velvet lining material in the cabinet.

[James_OldeTowne]

Business strikes can certainly tone to the same colors as proofs.

[prudden]

Something like this? I don't know if it's been cleaned or not.It's still one of my favorites. You con only see these bright colors on a flash picture.Under normal light they are more subdued.

[PCcoins]

Looks like that 1901 was hit with some MS70.

[gynandroidhead-migration]

That's definitelty not original, and I agree with the other poster that was "hit" with some MS70.

 

These coins are a glossy, brown uncirculated with good strikes and blue/violet color with no pinkish hues.

 

I have to double check to make sure if they are proofs. I did not have my good light with me because the woman told me that it was "mostly junk silver."

 

As I mentioned, I am also bringing my digital camera and I will have pictures of these coins (along with others) up in about a week or so.

 

This board is great.

 

Greg

[prudden]

That's definitelty not original, and I agree with the other poster that was "hit" with some MS70.

 

These coins are a glossy, brown uncirculated with good strikes and blue/violet color with no pinkish hues.

 

I have to double check to make sure if they are proofs. I did not have my good light with me because the woman told me that it was "mostly junk silver."

 

As I mentioned, I am also bringing my digital camera and I will have pictures of these coins (along with others) up in about a week or so.

 

This board is great.

 

Greg

 

The 1901 I posted looks glossy brown in ordinary light.I know it's not natural though.

[dean1345]

 

I would concur with the others. It looks like it has been introduced to Blue Ribbon or MS70.

Dean

 

[MarkFeld]

I would concur with the others. It looks like it has been introduced to Blue Ribbon or MS70.

Dean

I don't think Blue Ribbon, alone, would cause a color change.

[gmarguli]

I would concur with the others. It looks like it has been introduced to Blue Ribbon or MS70.

Dean

I don't think Blue Ribbon, alone, would cause a color change.

 

Blue Ribbon can be used to hide color/cleaning on a coin that would not be graded by a TPG.

[PCcoins]

Also, is there a premium on these coins when they are toned like this (as long as it's original?)

 

Greg

 

Most definitely YES! There is always a premium for any coins which are desired by collectors with exceptional eye appeal, either beautiful toning or proof like surfaces.

[BECOKA]

I would concur with the others. It looks like it has been introduced to Blue Ribbon or MS70.

Dean

I don't think Blue Ribbon, alone, would cause a color change.

 

I thought the residue from Blue Ribbon over time mixed with the impurities of the air caused the blue/purple hues?

[MikeInFL]

Blue ribbon is an oil (unlike MS 70) that makes thin films (i.e. toning) not so thin and in some cases hides/mutes the color. To the best of my knowedge, it doesn't make coins change color (again, unlike MS 70) from colorless to colored, but it can make a colored coin appear less colored. All IMHO...Mike

[prudden]

I see this topic is still getting posts. I meant to post some other pictures of this coin soon after i originally came in, but I couldn't find it until today. The purple and pink were taken with my point and shoot digital indoors using flash. These next were taken with the same camera under a overhead fluorescent light(muted with plastic cover) .No flash. The coin was angled up towards the light with the camera angled down. I was attempting to get a straight on shot with the brightest light. I'm kinda surprised at these. I had some others that make it look brown and in hand it is much darker.Weird what lighting can do.

 

[MarkFeld]

Perhaps it's just the imaging and lighting, but to me, the coin looks lightly circulated and possibly cleaned.

[truthteller]

Blue ribbon is an oil (unlike MS 70) that makes thin films (i.e. toning) not so thin and in some cases hides/mutes the color. To the best of my knowedge, it doesn't make coins change color (again, unlike MS 70) from colorless to colored, but it can make a colored coin appear less colored. All IMHO...Mike

 

 

MS70 changes color. Blue Ribbon affects color with the coating of oil, however, the color change on the surface remains. If acetone were used to remove the blue ribbon oil, the colors will re-emerge, although slightly off.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[TomB]

Perhaps it's just the imaging and lighting, but to me, the coin looks lightly circulated and possibly cleaned.

I'm seeing the same things you are, Mark.

[Oldtrader3]

Shown below is a two cent bronze coin with blue toning on some of the surfaces. This is an example of a cabinet toned coin with the violet/blue toning on only parts of the coin.

[dean1345]

Here is another good example of partial toning (violet) on a PF65BN 1886 type1.

 

[/img]

 

[/img]

 

Dean