Frustration ATS

[skippy]

I posted what I thought was an interesting question/suggestion ATS.

 

The idea I had was whether or not CAC should consider placing a different sticker on coins that they had seen but decided did not qualify as "good for the grade" (or however CAC words it). As is, we collectors cannot tell the difference between a coin that CAC rejected and a coin that CAC never saw.

 

My post got poofed.

 

Now, I don't see anything wrong or insulting in that post, so I have no idea why it got poofed. I posted a follow-up message that asked: "One of my posts got poofed. I don't see anything wrong with the post. If I broke some rule, I'd like to understand what it was. Can anyone tell me who I might talk to?"

 

The follow-up post got poofed.

 

What's a poor little ol' numismatist to do?

[PerryHall]

PCGS doesn't like CAC threads and deletes them whenever they can. I think they feel threatened by them. I can't think of any other explanation.

[TomB]

I had a detailed show report poofed because I mentioned CAC within the body of the text, though I do not know if it was in the title, too. The PM I received from PCGS essentially stated that they were pulled the thread because of the CAC content and that they were doing so on a case-by-case basis at that time.

[James_OldeTowne]

I think CAC is viewed as "competition" by PCGS, and suspect NGC feels the same way.

 

As is, we collectors cannot tell the difference between a coin that CAC rejected and a coin that CAC never saw.

At the end of the day, how much does it really matter? If you are able to see a sticker on the slab, then surely you are able to see the coin inside the slab as well. So, it might be in your best interest to rely more on your own standards.

 

To be perfectly honest, the CAC business model makes little business sense and no hobby sense to me anyway. Besides that, of the few stickered coins I've seen (very few), they didn't seem unusually nice for the assigned third party grade. They just seemed rather mundane. And since I've seen very many unstickered coins that DO look nice for the grade, I'd just as well ignore the sticker altogether (or wish the whole concept would just go away).

[cpm9ball]

It's my understanding that one of the principals of CAC had some not-so-nice things to say about PCGS sometime before CAC became operational. I seem to recall it had something to do with Laura Sperber and Legend, but I'm not sure.

 

Chris

[supertooth]

Skippy------ I think it all comes down to the fact that they "want to control and restrict your independent thinking process". And, in that control, they wish to guide it to where they want you to be.

 

Everywhere you look in this country today, the so called "system" wants to take you by the hand and show you how you ought to behave---what to think---how to act---how to even build your house---or even if you can fly an American flag outside----or hang your clothes out to dry in the fresh air on a clothesline.

 

As I said in the post about Oldtrader3 [ Charlie ] getting axed ATS, you could tell by what he said that he would soon be gone. And, IMHO, when your freedom of speech is restricted to such a degree that you are not allowed an independent thinking process, then it is time to recognize this fact and adjust accordingly.

 

Certainly it is NOT the folks ATS that are the problem for the most part----but it is the "system of thought" that is controling those chat boards that needs adjusting IMHO. Bob [supertooth]

 

 

[WinstonWare]

Wouldn't someone just pull the sticker off if it read, "unsightly for grade?"

[MikeInFL]

What's a poor little ol' numismatist to do?

 

Participate more in forums that aren't as draconian in their censorship policy.

[zrlevin]

Wouldn't someone just pull the sticker off if it read, "unsightly for grade?"

[James_OldeTowne]

Wouldn't someone just pull the sticker off if it read, "unsightly for grade?"

I thought the stickers were virtually impossible to remove ...

[cpm9ball]

Wouldn't someone just pull the sticker off if it read, "unsightly for grade?"

I thought the stickers were virtually impossible to remove ...

 

Heck no! A blowtorch works just fine.

 

Chris

[bsshog40]

I agree with Bob (supertoothe), I real;ly also think the PCGS is trying to downsize thier forum. they seem to be finding more reasons lately to poof threads and members.

[MarkFeld]

Wouldn't someone just pull the sticker off if it read, "unsightly for grade?"

I thought the stickers were virtually impossible to remove ...

They can be removed, but in doing so, are destroyed and thus not able to be applied to another holder.

[jesbroken]

Skippy,

I believe that the fact you were concerned whether or not CAC had viewed a coin or not is where PCGS takes offense. The fact that you wanted to be able to tell if CAC had or had not viewed a coin was a danger sign that CAC might truly cause PCGS's grading to be suspect and they certainly could not handle that. It would be almost like "free enterprize and the American Way" My goodness, can't have that. That went away with the Republic in 1903. JMHO

Jim

[Oldtrader3]

I think that HRH and Guth are too busy trying playing Atlas for the sagging CLCT stock during it's slooooow death spiral. The stock is down from $17.40 to $7.75/share in a year. Ratios are sick. The P/E equals -18.9, price/cash flow equals -36

[michael]

if ATS gives you gas or diarreha then do not go there or eat any of it go someplace else and post...............................................

 

see ricks snows market report page on his website and see waht he says about cac;

 

he bought a bunch of certified indian head cents and some he would not give the eagle eye photo seal to as they did not make the grade and/or designation

 

he puts them in auction to get rid of them and lo and behold after the auction he sees CAC stickers on them

 

he says he thinks CAC is knowledgable on gold and silver but no so much copper

 

 

[BillJones]

The idea I had was whether or not CAC should consider placing a different sticker on coins that they had seen but decided did not qualify as "good for the grade" (or however CAC words it). As is, we collectors cannot tell the difference between a coin that CAC rejected and a coin that CAC never saw.

 

Other than CAC’s major supporters, who ever said that CAC should have veto power over the grades that PCGS and NGC have placed on the coin? Do you honestly think that the CAC gets it right 100% of the time?

 

Since CAC started its crusade, I’ve been to a number of major shows where CAC coins are offered for sale. Yes, there are some very nice coins in CAC stickered holders, but I have seen a few real dogs too. CAC offers no more than an opinion. It’s up to collectors and dealers to decide if they like the coin, the grade and the price.

 

And given that it is only an opinion, why have a sticker that basically invalidates the grade the PCGS and NGC assigned to the coin? In such cases the owner of the coin would have two choices. One, he could peel off the sticker, which I think can be done. I have one CAC coin in my collection and I’ve not tried to get the thing off since the coin cost me a 5 figure price, and maybe some day I’ll need all the help I can get to resell it. Two, he would have to crack out the coin. In either case I don’t think you would see many coins on the market with CAC “flunk stickers” on them.

 

Let’s put it this way. How many coins do you see offered with the body bag attached?

 

[CarlWohlforth]

The whole idea of a sticker is funny. There are already lots of grades available. A sticker might be thought of as doubling the number of grades if it is supposed to mean PQ.

 

If the people selling stickers are so good they should be able to compete with existing grading services. They have chosen to do what every consumer should do: evaluate the coin and compare your opinion to the label and price.

 

If the customer only wants coins approved by the sticker sellers they should only buy coins from them. I see no need for stickers and they have no value IMO.

[MarkFeld]

I see no need for stickers and they have no value IMO.

Carl, of course that's absolutely fine if you feel that way. But if so, it means that a second expert opinion is of "no value" to you. And even if it is of no value to you, it is to many others, including collectors and dealers

 

Do you ever try to get another person's opinion on a coin you own or are thinking about buying? Or do you ever try to cross coins from NGC to PCGS or from PCGS to NGC for reasons other than the aesthetics of the holder (or in the case of PCGS so they can be included in a registry set)?

[mommam17]

Some people like them and some have no use for them. When shopping for a commem for my collection, having that green sticker gives it a boost because judging coins from pictures is nearly impossible. Talking to John Albanese about my coins is priceless.

[braddick]

As long as the CAC is ever so slightly crippled in their opinion of the coin (as they would have to be at a disadvantage because the Service sees the coin raw at all angles and grades it, the CAC must view the coin through its plastic holder to render an evaluation) their overall value will be somewhat limited, IMHO.

Outside of that, I have no problem with the concept and even a limited issue with the execution.

[CarlWohlforth]

"Do you ever try to get another person's opinion on a coin you own or are thinking about buying?"

 

Uh, no. I buy a coin if I like it or if I think I can re-sell it for a profit.

 

When I wanted opinions in the past I showed the coin to a person and talked with them about it. Several well known experts and many experienced dealers have been gracious enough to help educate me. I learned much more that way than I would by buying a sticker.

 

"Or do you ever try to cross coins from NGC to PCGS or from PCGS to NGC for reasons other than the aesthetics of the holder (or in the case of PCGS so they can be included in a registry set)?"

 

Not normally. Sometimes the market is paying too much attention to labels and stickers and not looking at the coins. There are times when I try to take advantage of that by buying an out of favor label and crossing to a more popular one.

 

"But if so, it means that a second expert opinion is of "no value" to you."

 

Well I understand that when I'm buying an NGC or PCGS certified coin more than one expert grader has rendered an opinion. Those experts have little to no conflict of interest. They see lots of coins. Some experts additional opinion about coins in their specialty (perhaps Rick Snow's opinions on IHCs as mentioned above) might be worth something to me but don't add a heck of a lot of value.

[mommam17]

If I can`t look at a coin in hand and can only view a scan or picture, how can I tell if the coin is nice? Sometimes it`s possible, many times not. For years coins have been looked at as A, B, and C for a grade. All coins graded the same are NOT the same. CAC has separated the nice A`s and B`s from the lowly C`s. It is a big help for me in building my commem collection.

[CarlWohlforth]

"If I can`t look at a coin in hand and can only view a scan or picture, how can I tell if the coin is nice?"

 

You should look at the coin in hand. If it isn't as nice as described or you just don't like it you should return it. That goes for coins with or without stickers.

[mommam17]

Yes Carl, you have to look at a coin in hand, but what a waste of time and money to ship it back. CAC saves both for me. PCGS and NGC have been great helpers for collectors like me, and now CAC is too.

[James_OldeTowne]

Wouldn't someone just pull the sticker off if it read, "unsightly for grade?"

I thought the stickers were virtually impossible to remove ...

 

Heck no! A blowtorch works just fine.

 

Chris

What about a bulldozer?

 

 

[mommam17]

That`s not a bulldozer. It`s a front end loader. Also, if I am looking at an auction with limited funds, why gamble on a coin that might not be nice and stop me from bidding on something else. I would not be able to hold both in my hand and decide. I could get stuck with a dog that I would return and miss another nice coin.

[BillJones]

Talking to John Albanese about my coins is priceless.

 

 

There is no one that I have ever met in this business in the 45+ years that I have been a collector who is that good.

[mommam17]

Founder PCGS, NGC, and CAC. He hit all my bases, thank you.

[BillJones]

“Don’t follow leaders … Watch your parking meters."

 

Bob Dylan

 

 

The only thing I would change in that quote is “Don’t blindly follow leaders.”