Post a coin you wished you owned!

[BillJones]

This is one of the two really big coins that I need to complete my type sets, a 1796 No Stars quarter eagle. Two of the others are expensive, but this one of the two pieces I need that are in the 6 figures.

 

 

I once had this coin on consignment to show to one of my customers. I begged him to buy it because it was a heck of a deal. The price was $85,000. To me it may as well have been $85 million at the time but he could have swung it. Today this coin would be worth $200,000. It was a very choice NGC AU-50, that was and became a crack-out candidate that made AU-58.

[PCcoins]

Well put Paul.

[lehigh96]

So there must be other Saints toned similar to this?? I know this is off topic but does anyone have pics of one similar?

 

I'm anything but an expert, but I've never seen anything close.

 

Hey Mike, How about this one that was the OP in a thread last month?

 

This gorgeous Saint 1908 No Motto belongs to Jack Kelly, aka Toneddollars. Comments and your toned gold images welcomed.

 

[MikeInFL]

Lehigh,

 

I apologize if my bluntness rubbed you the wrong way, but please don't put words into my mouth.

 

Nowhere did I "[decide] without any factual evidence to support your opinion that this coin is 100% AT and anyone who would sell or purchase such a coin is committing some kind of numismatic crime". I simply pointed out the opinion of others on the coin, and responded to your (rhetorical) question as to why someone would doctor the coin -- with a (rhetorical and blunt) answer: because there is a market for it.

 

In the end, if you like toned coins and don't care about their authenticity, more power to you. Really. However, please recognize the alternative viewpoint is just as valid, and shared by the market in general.

 

Respectfully....Mike

[MikeInFL]

 

Hey Mike, How about this one that was the OP in a thread last month?

 

While not as vivid as the first coin, that one does look similar. Thanks for posting it. (thumbs u

 

I'll try and dig up Saintguru's posts on the topic of toned saints ATS and cross-post the information, but if memory serves me, he believed these coins were the result of heat being applied to gold.

[MikeInFL]

Here's the thread:

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=650711&highlight_key=y

[PCcoins]

Very similar toning on that Saint. I think both coins are lovely

[rons]

No picture but I wish I had an 1892 proof Morgan to complete my Grandpas memorial birth year proof set

[MikeInFL]

Back to the topic at hand, here's a coin I wish I owned, but is owned by forum-member TomB (Tom, I hope you don't mind):

 

 

Hoping that if I continue to badger him about it, eventually he'll sell it to me....Mike

[lehigh96]

Lehigh,

 

I apologize if my bluntness rubbed you the wrong way, but please don't put words into my mouth.

 

Nowhere did I "[decide] without any factual evidence to support your opinion that this coin is 100% AT and anyone who would sell or purchase such a coin is committing some kind of numismatic crime". I simply pointed out the opinion of others on the coin, and responded to your (rhetorical) question as to why someone would doctor the coin -- with a (rhetorical and blunt) answer: because there is a market for it.

 

In the end, if you like toned coins and don't care about their authenticity, more power to you. Really. However, please recognize the alternative viewpoint is just as valid, and shared by the market in general.

 

Respectfully....Mike

 

OK, you are right, you never said that you thought 100% that you thought the coin was AT. That was just a jab. But I stand behind my statement that nobody who believes that the coin is AT has offered any evidence supporting the claim that the coin is AT and until they do we can't say one way or another whether the coin is AT or NT. I would settle for Questionable Toning, meaning we just don't know.

 

But there has been no factual evidence given at all. The opinions of others is not factual evidence. The guy ATS opinion is also not factual evidence. He tries to bully others to believe what he believes simply because he has seen 25,000+ saints, but thinks nothing of the opinions of the the professional graders at PCGS who do nothing but grade coins all day long. He even goes on to say that violet and blues are not natural on saints, but neither of the coins posted in the thread have any violet or blue. They have pink and lime green which do appear on gold from time to time. Anaconda's photo is enhanced by photoshop and the colors are probably not that vibrant.

 

Let me put it another way. I play poker with an older gentleman who loves to tell all of the younger players that he has been playing poker since before they were born. Their response is normally, wow you have sucked at poker for that long, impressive.

[BillJones]

At the risk of getting someone angry I'm going to say this. That color is unnatural on gold coin because the only way it can get there is though the copper or perhaps silver that is in the piece. Any copper coin that takes on those hues is suspect. To have it crop up on a gold piece via poor mixing of the metals AND natural circumstances is a real stretch IMO. Someone else can pay a big premium for that, but it won’t be me.

[Jeff S]

Re: Post a coin you wished you owned!

 

It isn’t so much a “coin” I really want, as it is the holder.

I have been trying for sometime now to put together a set of NGC Collectors’ Society (the red labels) and the one holder that keeps eluding me is the 2000 South Carolina in the 2006 Collectors’ Society holder.

 

The holder its self isn’t worth a lot in cash value but to me it is one of the last ones I feel that are out there I don’t have.

 

I have an image of the 2007 version.

 

 

[lehigh96]

At the risk of getting someone angry I'm going to say this. That color is unnatural on gold coin because the only way it can get there is though the copper or perhaps silver that is in the piece. Any copper coin that takes on those hues is suspect. To have it crop up on a gold piece via poor mixing of the metals AND natural circumstances is a real stretch IMO. Someone else can pay a big premium for that, but it won’t be me.

 

Now that is a little better, but we still need to examine why a copper coin with those hues is suspect. I would like to point out that these coins are from the early 20th century and they didn't have sophisticated quality control labs to ensure the quality of the planchets like they do in the present. I worked in an aluminum master alloys plant in the late 90's and you would be surprised at the number of heats that had to be scrapped after going through quality control.

 

It would not surprise me at all that there were planchets produced in the late 1800's and early 1900's that had poor mixing of the gold and copper. To me, the key is whether or not a poorly mixed planchet would result in that toning pattern without the deliberate addition of some chemical to the surface and or heat.

 

However, I have seen many mint set copper Lincolns with lime green and pink toning. Therefore, IMO we can't automatically conclude that copper coins with those hues are suspect.

[MikeInFL]

...But I stand behind my statement that nobody who believes that the coin is AT has offered any evidence supporting the claim that the coin is AT and until they do we can't say one way or another whether the coin is AT or NT. I would settle for Questionable Toning, meaning we just don't know.

 

But there has been no factual evidence given at all. The opinions of others is not factual evidence. The guy ATS opinion is also not factual evidence. He tries to bully others to believe what he believes simply because he has seen 25,000+ saints, but thinks nothing of the opinions of the the professional graders at PCGS who do nothing but grade coins all day long. He even goes on to say that violet and blues are not natural on saints, but neither of the coins posted in the thread have any violet or blue. They have pink and lime green which do appear on gold from time to time. Anaconda's photo is enhanced by photoshop and the colors are probably not that vibrant.

 

Let me put it another way. I play poker with an older gentleman who loves to tell all of the younger players that he has been playing poker since before they were born. Their response is normally, wow you have sucked at poker for that long, impressive.

 

Taking your argument to its end, if there's no hard evidence, then everything's Questionable Toning. As the only hard evidence you'll accept is non-opinion based, then only someone doing the AT job or someone observing it directly will be the only ones to really know, and presuming neither you or I do such things then we'll never know.

 

So it comes down to opinions, because that's all we're left with -- subjective opinions.

 

You may not respect the opinions of Saintguru, Bill, and other more-experienced-than-you-or-I collectors, but I do. That's not to say I don't question them (as I'm sure Bill can attest to ), but when one of them says "take that to the bank" -- I listen.

 

To use your example, had the older gentleman been taking your money for the past five years uttered those same words, you'd probably put more weight on it....Mike

 

 

[MikeInFL]

p.s. please don't get me wrong, the scientist in me wants hard evidence too, but the realist says it may never come.

[robec1347]

Yes, it could go both ways. Which is strange. It should be one or the other, meaning there should be more examples like this either if they're AT or NT. Not just ONE!

 

So there must be other Saints toned similar to this?? I know this is off topic but does anyone have pics of one similar?

 

I imaged this Saint belonging to Jack Kelly (Toneddollars). It has some similarities and is also a gorgeous coin IMHO.

 

I see that this has already been posted. I guess I should have finished the thread before I posted it a second time.

 

 

[lehigh96]

...But I stand behind my statement that nobody who believes that the coin is AT has offered any evidence supporting the claim that the coin is AT and until they do we can't say one way or another whether the coin is AT or NT. I would settle for Questionable Toning, meaning we just don't know.

 

But there has been no factual evidence given at all. The opinions of others is not factual evidence. The guy ATS opinion is also not factual evidence. He tries to bully others to believe what he believes simply because he has seen 25,000+ saints, but thinks nothing of the opinions of the the professional graders at PCGS who do nothing but grade coins all day long. He even goes on to say that violet and blues are not natural on saints, but neither of the coins posted in the thread have any violet or blue. They have pink and lime green which do appear on gold from time to time. Anaconda's photo is enhanced by photoshop and the colors are probably not that vibrant.

 

Let me put it another way. I play poker with an older gentleman who loves to tell all of the younger players that he has been playing poker since before they were born. Their response is normally, wow you have sucked at poker for that long, impressive.

 

Taking your argument to its end, if there's no hard evidence, then everything's Questionable Toning. As the only hard evidence you'll accept is non-opinion based, then only someone doing the AT job or someone observing it directly will be the only ones to really know, and presuming neither you or I do such things then we'll never know.

 

So it comes down to opinions, because that's all we're left with -- subjective opinions.

 

You may not respect the opinions of Saintguru, Bill, and other more-experienced-than-you-or-I collectors, but I do. That's not to say I don't question them (as I'm sure Bill can attest to ), but when one of them says "take that to the bank" -- I listen.

 

To use your example, had the older gentleman been taking your money for the past five years uttered those same words, you'd probably put more weight on it....Mike

 

 

Well I would say that is close, but not everything is questionable. There are predictable patterns and indicators of bag toning on Morgan Dollars, mint set toned coins, and album toning that are very good indicators that the toning is original. There are also indicators of AT including characteristics that simply don't appear through air transfer toning and would lead one to thing that the toning was caused by a liquid or forced gas. When the toning does not fit any of these tell tale signs and falls in the middle, then yes, I would consider the toning questionable, because nobody really can say for sure how the toning occurred. However, the TPG's are supposed to take the stance that in cases where the toning is questionable, they will not grade the coin. We have all seen that does not happen, so I feel that all questionably toned coins should be graded and given the benefit of the doubt.

 

I respect Bill's opinion very much especially when it relates to copper coinage. I don't know Saintguru and his comments in one thread are not enough for me to form an accurate opinion. However, my first impression is not a good one. There was very little substance to his posts and they were mostly his opinions which he wanted to convey as facts. When challenged, he immediately wielded his extensive experience as a weapon instead of offering explanations based on that experience. I have no doubt that saintguru knows infinitely more than I about saints, but I promise that my knowledge about toning and metals in general is more than enough to realize that his knowledge about the toning characteristics of gold coins is based solely on his coin collecting experience and not related to any formalized education on the subject.

 

My analogy with the poker player was accurate. A professional that has been taking my money for the last five years would never need to justify his actions at the table since he already has my money and bringing up that fact would only serve to warn me that playing against him is futile, thus costing him money.

 

Paul

[TomB]

Please post a photo of a coin that you wished you owned. It can be a coin you can't afford, one you regrettably passed on, or a coin you regret having sold etc. This should be a lot of fun.

 

I will start with a toned 1923-D St. Gaudens Double Eagle PCGS MS65 OGH that I was contemplating buying about a year ago from Anaconda. When I finally decided to make an offer on the coin which had a price tag of over 3X bid, the coin was gone. As a toning aficionado, it pains me every time I look at this photo and realize that I don't own it. (Photo courtesy of Anaconda Rare Coins)

 

 

:makepoint:AT

Agreed. In my opinion: AT.

[PCcoins]

Everybody has their own opinion, and thats the beauty of this forum! I just wouldn't say its 100% this or 100% that, without being 100% sure.

 

[Elbesaar]

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[lehigh96]

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I would have expected nothing less than that coin from our Barber obsessed friend. Great Wish coin!

[TomB]

I forgot to post the rest of my initial response. As a scientist, I must admit that I do not have the evidence to prove the initially posted double eagle is AT. However, I was given the opportunity to examine the coin in-hand and I did not believe that its in-hand toning characteristics were consistent with what I believe or know are legitimately toned coins.

[zrlevin]

This is one of Winston's:

 

[okbustchaser]

 

I was at least allowed to fondle---err,,,HOLD, yeah HOLD, not fondle--this one prior to the Oliver Jung sale in 2004 even though all the good folks at ANR (now part of Stacks) knew that there was no possible way I was a legitimate bidder.

[lehigh96]

WOW That coin is awesome. I am scared to even know the grade or the price of that piece. I knew this thread would be fun. Here is a coin that I would love to have, a toned washlady. Photos courtesy of Heritage