I was going to finally get my NGC membership, but I found this...

[RobertB]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2199710940&category

 

Yeah, it's not the rarest but I'm diggin' it. Nice and satiny and very white. It seems like every time I go to get my membership with NGC for direct submission I find another coin to buy. Anyone else have this sick lack of control???

[spy88]

then I found this

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198224926

 

and then this

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198273483

 

and then this

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2197829117

 

It never ends!!!

 

David

 

P.S. If all of you agree that these are AT, (and I DO believe you), then should I hope to be outbid on this one?

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198697974

 

David

[MAULEMALL]

then I found this

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198224926

 

and then this

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198273483

 

 

 

David

 

Are those yours?

[mommam17]

The Pilgrim and Lincoln are AT that sold for about MS 64 prices. Darn them doctors.

[Wihlborg]

Robert,

 

It looks like you picked up a nice coin. I like all the ’35/’34 Boones, but I especially like the D mint coin with a mintage of 2003 and the S mint with a mintage of 2004. These two are the lowest mintage coins of the entire early commemorative series. Even though the S mint coin had a mintage of one coin more than the D mint, the S mint is the rarest date of the three.

 

Congratulations

John

 

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Mommam -Your post said what I was thinking when I looked at the images earlier. For the heck of it I checked out the other Commem's this seller has currently on Ebay and just about all of them have the same exact kind of toning. Something smells fishy.

Spy88 (David) - I hope your purchases are the real thing and aren't AT. Also, no offense intended, as they are quite eye-catching.

[RobertB]

Yeah, AT I think, but I'm no expert. I'm always leary of a seller selling multiple coins with spectacular toning of the same colors and/or styles. Hope they're ok though as they are very eye catching and nice.

[Chippewa]

David

 

Sorry to say, but you are dealing with a coin doctor. Strongly recommend not buying "MS" uncertified coins on ebay. The Pilgrim and Lincoln have definately been chemically treated as that color "never" occurs naturally on those coins.

[spy88]

Chippewa, as the bid page stated, they supposedly came from old Wayte Raymond holders, the Pilgrim, anyway. Could be they neglected to say the same for the Lincoln. This is why I asked about them in a previous post. Yes, they MAY be AT, but are they pretty or are they PRETTY? High sulfur content in those old holders can do this to them. See Wayte Raymond post.

 

MauleMall, yea, thats my eBay user id. John, you are the commem expert, what do you think of these three I got? Mommam, how can you be so SURE they were doctored? Did you look at the list of items this coin store out of New York has listed? Quite alot of good dates for quite alot of good coins! Would they doctor just the Commems? No toned Peace/Morgans, (1 or 2).

 

Even if AT, the condition of the coins thru the pics say MS65+ to me. Could be wrong, but checked out ALL previous sales of these coins handled by Heritage, and the ones they sold for many hundreds/thousands were no where near as good of condition (based on their pics only). Either way, they were a good buy in my book, and should have no problem flipping them for a profit someday. And as you can see on the bid page, I wasn't the only one that wanted these coins!

 

David

[Wihlborg]

David,

 

I usually will not comment on someone else’s coin if I have something negative to say, but since you are asking my opinion I will comment. I am sorry to say that I also believe they are AT. The colors are just not natural for the coins.

 

I would not be surprised if they turn out to be AU also. It is extremely difficult to judge a coins grade from a photo, but from the photos these coins look clean enough to be MS-66 coins. These coins in MS-66 are worth over $1,000 each, not taking into account the toning if it were original. IMO there is no reason that these coins would not be in a NGC or PCGS holder selling for a couple thousand dollars each if they were what they appear to be. Now I know I may get flamed for saying this, but I just don’t believe that 99 dealers out of a hundred would be selling these on eBay raw instead of sending them in to be certified if they had no problems.

 

Sorry

John

 

[spy88]

John, PLEASE do not apologize! Like I said, I bought them because I LIKED 'em, pure and simple! All else I said was explanation to previous posts. Like I said, I did my homework on them before bidding, and knew potential value for "exhibited" grade.

 

And just to play the "other side", maybe they did not have the time or inclination to slab before listing. Maybe they thought they would fetch higher prices from the listing then they realized. Maybe they just wanted to unload ALL of their "ESTATE" coins for a fast influx of money into their coffers, regardless of what could have been.

 

Anyway, I thank you for your response. AT or NT--Artificial/Any, Natural,No toning, for the condition according to the pics, could not lose. I might be wrong when I get them, but so it goes in our business!

 

David

[Wihlborg]

David,

 

The most imporant thing is that YOU are happy with them.

 

Good luck with them

 

John

[spy88]

Thanks, John

 

David

 

P.S. You do NOT think that being in a Raymond holder could give them the toning they exhibit?

[Wihlborg]

David,

 

IMO the toning on the coins has the look of AT caused by heat and chemicals.

 

John

 

[C.Urch]

100% AT...Not a chance these coins toned naturally...Sorry.

[spy88]

Fair enough, John, but the chemical part of it, according to Hoot and 291fifth (Wayte Raymond holders post), the sulfur in the original holders could cause this kind of toning. Granted, they all look similar tone-wise, but is it in the realm of impossibility that that is NOT what happened?

 

Maybe I sound like I am trying to justify my purchase, and honestly, maybe I am.

But the toning was the attraction (eye appeal) that first got me to notice them. The coin itself, based on the pics condition, was primary, at least for the purchases. They are in excellent condition. That is hard to fake even with software. And why go to the trouble if they know the buyer will probably return for refund if not as advertised?

 

I apologize for constantly getting in the last word, but this is like a conversation we are having. And I am LEARNING from you by asking questions and getting responses. That is one of the main reasons I am here!

 

David

[mommam17]

David- Listen to everyone. YES they are doctored. NO DOUBT. Thay are not pretty coins you will make money with unless you sell them to a collector that doesn`t know better. You should buy original slabbed coins from NGC and PCGS, instead of coins that have been doctored, to make money. You spent $224 for a doctored Pilgrim. Do a search on ebay and check out the one I just bought for $241. Yours might look better but is not woth it because it`s not original.

[RobertB]

I know all this is a total deviation from my lack of control thread but since we're all talking about it....I believe this AT thing is out of hand. I'm used to seeing somewhat inexpensive coins from the mid 1900's being toned for a long time but now everything is fair game. On ebay alone I've seen coins only 3-10 years old with AT applied in the most ridiculous manners. They look so fake it isn't funny. Also, now I'm seeing alot of early commems getting AT . Some of them are legitimately nice coins and they are IMO being ruined.

 

There's one guy on ebay, I believe with the user name of like 'tonecoin' or something like that who in MY OPINION is ATing tons of coins. Sadly this guy has like 2000 or something sales under his belt. This is ridiculous . He is destroying so many coins. I swear I wish there was some criminal way to investigate this guy for his crimes against numismatics.

 

Maybe that's what we need: an International Crimes Against Numismatics Court,

where we could put the guilty up against the wall. Hell, I'll be glad to pull the trigger!

[mommam17]

The thing I don`t understand is the people selling doctored coins on Ebay have good feedback. Collectors don`t know and don`t leave negative feedback. Also, it is hard to find nice eyeappealing commems on ebay even the slabbed one from NGC and PCGS. Alot of it is dealers unwanted stock that they can`t sell.

[RobertB]

David- Listen to everyone. YES they are doctored. NO DOUBT. Thay are not pretty coins you will make money with unless you sell them to a collector that doesn`t know better. You should buy original slabbed coins from NGC and PCGS, instead of coins that have been doctored, to make money. You spent $224 for a doctored Pilgrim. Do a search on ebay and check out the one I just bought for $241. Yours might look better but is not woth it because it`s not original.

 

Hey mommam give us a link to your Pilgrim. I gotta see it. I got the commem crazies this week.

I bought in the last week or so:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3047910258

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3047908066

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3053545677

 

and you can see my Boone 35/34 in the first opening post.

 

Rob

 

 

[spy88]

Ok, mommam, I've listened and it has been recorded. IF, when I get these coins, and they are NOT in the MS condition I perceive them to be, I have the option to return and may do so. As I said, the coin and its apparent grade is what I bought---not for the toning! It attracted me to it like a moth to a light, but I am still far enough away from it to not get killed and can fly away in the opposite direction!

 

Thank you for everyones observations and concern. I am most highly appreciative!

 

And you are right, Robert, I have seen his "MONSTER TONED" coins all over eBay in just about every line of coinage. Every now and again, he gets one past PCGS and it gets slabbed. Considering the controversy in that regard, I was very surprised to see them show up!

 

I think Russian Roulette would be more fun then just a firing squad!

 

David

[TonerGuy]

The most imporant thing is that YOU are happy with them.

 

The thing I don`t understand is the people selling doctored coins on Ebay have good feedback.

 

See Quote #1!

 

That's the problem here, it isn't just if you're happy with your coin, you must realize you have just been defrauded. I don't know too many people that are happy being defrauded! If you do, please PM so I can stop working and making an honest living and start stealing money from people and make them happy!

 

We aren't discussing a coin that was just purchased raw and it's a toss up between a VF and EF grade. It that situation be happy with your coin, but if someone just purchased an AG-3 for AU money I would tell them to RETURN THE COIN IMMEDIATELY and post NEGATIVE FEEDBACK.

 

Those Commems are 100% AT. Matter of fact its very bad AT. Not even close to decent AT. Go look at Tonecoin's most recent coins, he's getting better at it.

 

This just sickens me.

 

Michael

[RobertB]

Hey Michael,

 

Doesn't it make you want to kick this tonedcoin guy's [!@#%^&^]. NO I'm not actually threatening violence. But this guy should be put in check. I feel like emailing everyone in his feedback list of buyers and tell them, " hey, you've been ripped off good."

 

Maybe when he dies his hell will be to walk around all toned up just like his stupid coins while demons throw his ATed coins at him for eternity.

[mommam17]

I don`t know how to do a link but do a search on ebay and it will come up from Oct.25th. I bought it as an investment coin and not a keeper coin unless when I get it I really like it. I payed $241 and I know it sold at auction in Sept. at Long Beach. for $276 so I guess I did all right.

[spy88]

OKOKOKOKOKOK---OK!

They are AT! I am convinced already! How about these then?

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198699336

 

and

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198276732

 

Comments?

 

David

[Wihlborg]

David,

 

I would like to start by stating that I am by no means an expert on toning so everything I have written is my option and based solely on my own experience. With that being said,

while it is true that the sulfur in the old Wayte Raymond albums caused some coins stored in them to tone wonderfully, most did not and the ones that did tone nicely do not exhibit the type of colors and pattern of tone that your coins have. The type of tone on your coins is very typical of AT caused by heat and chemicals. Some of the AT work being done today is very good and has fooled a lot of collectors and some will say even the grading services. IMO the only real way to learn how to tell AT from natural is to look at a lot of naturally toned coins so you can get an idea as to what colors, color combinations, & patterns occur naturally.

 

Maybe some of the real toning experts who are board members can add some more insight. Are you out there TomB?

 

John

 

[RobertB]

OKOKOKOKOKOK---OK!

They are AT! I am convinced already! How about these then?

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.ddl?ViewItem&item=2198699336

 

and

 

http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2198276732

 

Comments?

 

David

 

The second one looks legit. to me. Can't grade it from the pic's though. The first link won't come up?

 

Rob

[mommam17]

spy- First link didn`t work and I can`t tell from the scan on the second one. RobertB- Your commems look like nice coins from a good seller. It`s funny I`ve been thinking about Boone commems almost all weekend. I seldom sell and just sold a 1935 PDS set on ebay. I have a really nice toned 1937 PDS set that I`ve been thinking of selling but don`t know if I can part with it. I`m torn since it would give me some operating money!!

[RobertB]

Are you out there TomB?

 

If anyone knows it's Tom.

[Wihlborg]

Michael,

 

The most imporant thing is that YOU are happy with them.

 

Just to clarify my statement, it was based on David stating that he liked the coins whiter they were AT or not. Personally, I also am quite upset to say the least at some of the coins that are being sold on eBay.

 

John