Thoughts on Reduced Sze Capped Bust Quarter Availability

[JamminJ]

Hi everyone,

 

When I returned to coin collecting a couple of years back I decided my first tougher collection would be reduced size Bust quarters 1831-1838. I chose these as I liked the design, the coins we’re affordable in AU grades (say $550-$800) and the set was small enough to complete in a reasonable amount of time on my budget. However, after getting off to a good start finding nice examples of the ’34 and ’33 I haven’t seen many around at all - even at giant coins shows like Long Beach and the ANA. This is especially striking as the Bust Halves seem to be everywhere!

 

Since the prices don’t suggest extreme rarity I wondered where they all were. Last night I was looking over some of the older greysheets some kind soul had given me and came across and article entitled “Early US Type, Challenging and Interesting” in the October 11, 2003 issue. Here I discovered that only 697 have been certified in AU grades by NGC or PCGS. While this seemed low to me it certainly shed some light on my difficulties!

 

Using the numbers given in the article and discussions with CoinLes I looked into some possible causes of the seeming low numbers of certified coins.

 

Since I’m not really comfortable buying several hundred dollar coins raw, perhaps I’m overlooking many nice raw examples?

The prices certainly seem high enough to support the viability of third party grading. Additionally, the price more or less doubles from XF to AU grades so getting it into AU plastic can help the dealer’s bottom line. These two thing argue that a fairly large portion of the existing coins have been certified.

 

There’s no edge lettering on these coins which might dissuade people from slabbing them. Even if there was lettering I don’t thing this would have much effect as the bust halves are available in both reeded edge and lettered edge varieties and …

 

Lettered edge halves were from made from 1807-1836 with 11.5K slabbed in AU of the 82.4M total mintage = 0.014%.

Reeded edges halves were made from 1836-1839 with 1300 slabbed in AU vs. of the 8.7 M total mintage = 0.015%.

 

So it seems that ever the slightest bit more of the reeded edge ones made it into slabs, but since these are from the later dates they probably have somewhat more remaining in high grade than the earlier types.

 

To compare, the reduced size Bust quarters we're made from 1831-1838 with 697 slabbed in AU vs. 4.2 M total mintage = 0.017%. So they're actually a bit more common than the halves in slabs. The abundance of nice halves can be explained via their higher mintages.

 

I conclude the explanation for my difficulty of finding them is simply there aren’t all that many of them out there. This seems especially true considering crackouts, half the series mintage is in a single date (1835) and if one has a bias away from the liner AU50 coins (a reasonable position as there’s little price difference between the AU grades) even fewer are available. My strategy – just keep on looking and when I nice one comes along pounce!

 

I’ve found the NGC forums to be a helpful place filled with knowledgeable folks, so I invite anyone with an opinion on or addition to my discussion to reply!

 

-JamminJ

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

There is REAL shortage of nice, not problem 19th century type coins in really all circulated grades VF and higher. Most of the raw coins I see have problems that range from rim nicks to cleaned and/or artificially recolored. And not all the slabbed are what they should be either.

 

Putting together the collection that you are working upon is a real challenge. Most people don't try to do it, so the prices tend to get lumped together for all of the dates. Some dates are harder to find than you might think. I'd be open to paying higher prices so as they are not ridiculous for coins that meet your standards. Good luck! It will take longer that you might think.

 

If you like send me a want list, and I can keep and eye out for you for these coins. I might find something or I might not, but at least it would be one more set of eyes looking for it. I take wants lists from serious customers very seriously.

[TomB]

The lack of date sets for this type takes the market pressure off each individual coin and, therefore, leads to erroneously low bid prices. This makes the coins appear easier to obtain than is true. I seem to see more of these coins than you do, however, they don't typically trade at levels that most would seem reasonable. Try to accept nice, original raw pieces and you should be fine. After all, you already know what an original silver coin from other series of this era looks like. Good luck.

[gmarguli]

Most of the raw coins I see have problems that range from rim nicks to cleaned and/or artificially recolored. And not all the slabbed are what they should be either.

 

and

 

Try to accept nice, original raw pieces and you should be fine. After all, you already know what an original silver coin from other series of this era looks like.

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

From what I see, almost every coin I see from 1820's and '30's are overgraded by one grade (i.e. Fine gets called VF, VFgets called EF etc.) Part of this is fault of the grading companies that have lower the standards for circulated coins. I guess the standards will eventually be lower universally because of this.

[JamminJ]

Nice quarters Greg,

 

You bounce those around in your pocket for a couple of weeks and they'll fit in swimmingly with mine!

 

-JamminJ

[gmarguli]

Nice quarters Greg,

 

You bounce those around in your pocket for a couple of weeks and they'll fit in swimmingly with mine!

 

-JamminJ

 

I guess you weren't here for the story of these quarters? Look closely at them. Notice anything?

 

It's the same coin. The top is the before picture and the bottom is the after picture. Yep, I said that correctly. The white coin is the before and the toned coin is the after. It was in a PCGS slab both times. TomB spotted this coin in the Heritages auctions a while back.

[TomB]

Good work, Greg, I forgot about that one!

 

Yes, this is the same coin and was auctioned by Heritage two times. The white image was from an auction about two years ago and the toned image is from an auction earlier this year, perhaps March. I started a thread on the coin and Heritage actually put a disclaimer on the auction lot stating that the coin might actually by AT.

[EVillageProwler]

Jammin'

 

I'd second much of what was already expressed by TomB and BillJ. In relative terms, these coins are available. But, they are usually available raw and with problems. Problem-free specimens and MS specimens are tough to find.

 

I am pleased that you took the effort to observe this series and noticed the relative dearth of specimens to their pricing level. You should know by now that every Bust series in every denomination and metal is scarce when it comes to problem-free specimens, and every one of these is traded at a premium to the published lists because the published lists have to account for the typical specimen of these series (and the typical specimen is f-ed up in some way).

 

EVP

 

[JamminJ]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

I had forgotten about the thread but our Official Message Board Ambassador refreshed my memory. Clearly the two are the same coin: the tic above the eagle's right wing, small scratch above its head and the small frown shaped scratch to the right of the bust are unmistakable.

 

I must say the second version is a rather nice AT job - it fooled both me (not too tough) and the pros (hopefully tougher). Also illustrative is how the AT job hides some of the lesser flaws, at least to the detail of the photographs. Does anyone know if the coin sold in either auction, and if so the prices?

 

I'll just keep looking at these coins, good or crappy, to build both knowledge and my collection.

 

Thanks again,

-JamminJ

 

By the way, I don't post much in the US Coin Forum as I often don't have much to add. This time I feel I held my own with the "big boys."

[Android]

Funny we should be talking about these. Here's one I picked up today for my type set. It is an ANACS AU55.

 

[EZ_E]

Greg, I saw that it was the same right off, however .... I assumed that the toned one was dipped. Fooled me.

 

Actually, I feel that this example is contributing to swaying my opinion about some AT coins. If accelerated toning equates with AT, then I'm for it. If chemicals with harsh residues are used, then I'm against it. Obviously, IMO, the toned coin has the best eye-appeal.