An $800 1883-O Morgan Dollar MS62 on E-Bay!

[lehigh96]

EBAY

 

No thanks!

 

This coin is so that everyone can forget they saw that one!

 

 

 

 

[EZ_E]

Pretty enough but not for me at that price or anything more than 10% of a premium.

[Oldtrader3]

Looks AT to me, and overpriced.

[K6AZ]

No way. I had 63s that looked better than that, barely brought $100 on Teletrade. I bet if you do a little searching on TT you will find that coin at a realized price nowhere near what he is asking.

[WoodenJefferson]

JUICED

[lehigh96]

Now I on purpose didn't put the photo in the thread. That thing is going to seriously injure some poor unsuspecting forum reader who stumbles upon it. It's like a land mine in the middle of a chat board. Hell, somebody might actually turn to stone. Can I change the title to include PROCEED WITH CAUTION---MEDUSA INSIDE!

[K6AZ]

How about something a little more believable?

 

[World Colonial]

U have a raw 1883-0 that I bought 20 years ago for $55 which was too much. NGC would probably give it an MS-64 which they did for my 1884-O. Its not "rainbow" toned but I doubt I could get more than $45 for it today. If that is what toning premium exists today, that just ridiculous.

[lehigh96]

U have a raw 1883-0 that I bought 20 years ago for $55 which was too much. NGC would probably give it an MS-64 which they did for my 1884-O. Its not "rainbow" toned but I doubt I could get more than $45 for it today. If that is what toning premium exists today, that just ridiculous.

 

I posted a photo of an extraordinarily reverse toned MS64* in the OP. What would you pay for that coin? Your answer may be a few hundred dollars. But to a toning enthusiast, the answer will be a few thousand dollars. I don't object to the E-Bay seller trying to sell a common date low grade rainbow toned coin for $800, I object to that E-Bay seller trying to sell Medusa in a PCGS slab for $800.

 

I don't consult price guides when buy rainbow toned Morgan Dollars, but I am aware of what the market prices are for common dates. An 1883-O MS64 untoned is a $50 coin and for good reason, the population is 57825/14547. When I purchase rainbow toned coins of the caliber in the OP, I try to remember that only about 1 of every 1,000 graded coins is going to have toning with that kind of eye appeal. Taking that into the consideration, the population drops to 57/14. Now ask yourself, how much would you pay for a coin with that population and the demand of Morgan Dollars. My guess is that most people would answer at least $1,000.

 

My point is that price guides are absolutely useless when purchasing rainbow toned common date Morgans. In fact, all they will serve to do is scare the buyer into thinking they are getting a bad deal on the coin.

[braddick]

[CHABSENTIA]

I have several Morgans and would not pay that much just because it is toned.There is no guarantee that should somebody pay that much that somebody else will buy it because it has a low population. I have a 1881 S PL in MS65 that costs me a fraction of $800.00 .

 

I don't buy on eye appeal. $800.00 compared to $50.00 is 16 times. To me that would be paying $16,000.00 for a car that is worth $1000.00 because it has great eye appeal.

 

I suppose that there are people who collect these toned coins but such a premium is not for me.

 

 

[cpm9ball]

Yes, I do like the rainbows, but I'm not going to go overboard for them. For all we know, 10-15 years from now, toners will be out of vogue and values could drop like a rock.

 

At the FUN Show last January, a dealer had a beautifully matched pair of raw 1885's that I really liked. The obverse of the first was 75% rainbow with the southeast quadrant bright white. The reverse of the second was 75% rainbow with the southwest quadrant bright white. I told him that I thought they would look fantastic in an NGC multiholder. When I asked, "How much?", he said, "$900 for the pair." without even glancing my way. I guess he figured that I just had to have them. Even after I hesitated for a moment before saying anything, he still didn't look my way. So, I said, "That's too much. Thank you! Bye!"

 

Chris

[CHABSENTIA]

As long as somebody knows the limits and gets the enjoyment out of the cost then it is up to the Individual. I could go out and buy a BMW this afternoon.I can just as well go out and buy a Ford Falcon or a Chevy Geo or something in between.Some people have to have the BMW .

 

Having the Money and being able to afford something is two different things.

[dleonard-3]

How come it's in the holder BACKWARDS?

[cpm9ball]

How come it's in the holder BACKWARDS?

 

Because Miss Liberty forgot her sunblock.

 

Chris

[lehigh96]

Yes, I do like the rainbows, but I'm not going to go overboard for them. For all we know, 10-15 years from now, toners will be out of vogue and values could drop like a rock.

 

At the FUN Show last January, a dealer had a beautifully matched pair of raw 1885's that I really liked. The obverse of the first was 75% rainbow with the southeast quadrant bright white. The reverse of the second was 75% rainbow with the southwest quadrant bright white. I told him that I thought they would look fantastic in an NGC multiholder. When I asked, "How much?", he said, "$900 for the pair." without even glancing my way. I guess he figured that I just had to have them. Even after I hesitated for a moment before saying anything, he still didn't look my way. So, I said, "That's too much. Thank you! Bye!"

 

Chris

 

I think you just proved my point in my previous post. What casued you to hesitate about buying two coins that you really liked was that they were priced at $40 each and you were scared to buy a coin at 10X wholesale value.

 

I find your statement that people buy toned coins because they are in vogue to be inherently flawed. One only needs to read this board regularly to understand that the majority of collectors buy coins that they find eye-appealing. Although different people find different coins attractive, there are many collectors that find rainbow toned coins the ultimate in eye appeal (myself included). The reason these coins are so highly priced is due to supply and demand. As I stated earlier, only a fraction of the available coins have rainbow toning, which is what drives the premium price. Since the number of rainbow toned coins is not likely to sky rocket in the future, then you are saying that the demand for rainbow toned coins will decrease significantly in the future.

 

The US Mint programs like the state quarters and the presidential dollars have introduced literally millions of new people to the hobby of coin collecting. If only a small fraction of those people become hooked on the hobby and end up coin freaks like us, it will only increase the demand for all rare coins, rainbow toned coins included. I see the prices only increasing in the future.

 

I am not saying that I think you should have bought those matched Morgans for that price or any other for that matter. That is your decision alone. I am saying that $900 may have been a fair price for the coins if they had incredible toning. When I buy rainbow toned coins, I look at the coin and decide how much it is worth to me. Then I offer that much to the dealer. If the dealer declines the offer, then I assume that my price is below their buy minimum acceptable sell price in order to make a profit and I move on. However, one must realize that certain dealers will list rainbow toned coins at up to 50% over their cost on occasion and if your offer is 30% below their listed (advertised) price, they may still sell you the coin. There is no harm in making the offer, all they can do is say no.

 

Here is a little exercise if you are interested. An 1886 Morgan Dollar in MS64 is about $50 untoned and very common. Go to Heritage's permanent auction archives and pull up every 1886 MS64 they have sold over the last year. Count the total number of coins and keep track of the number that have rainbow toning. You will notice that coins with minor rainbow toning usually get 2X wholesale. Coins with 25%-50% rainbow toning get 3-5X wholesale, and coins with the entire obverse, reverse, or extraordinary toning (vivid colors etc) fetch 6X and up. There are coins that exist that paying 20X-30X-40X wholesale price for the toning is appropriate because the coin is so beautiful that it makes it uniquely rare. I say that the reverse toned 1883-O in the original post is one of those coins that is worth minumum 20X wholesale value.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I don't buy on eye appeal. $800.00 compared to $50.00 is 16 times. To me that would be paying $16,000.00 for a car that is worth $1000.00 because it has great eye appeal.

Generally speaking, the lower the price of a generic coin/example, the greater the chance that a beautifully toned one can bring a higher multiple. So, for example, usually a buyer will be far more willing to pay a 20X premium on a $50 item than on a $1000 item.

[lehigh96]

I don't buy on eye appeal. $800.00 compared to $50.00 is 16 times. To me that would be paying $16,000.00 for a car that is worth $1000.00 because it has great eye appeal.

Generally speaking, the lower the price of a generic coin/example, the greater the chance that a beautifully toned one can bring a higher multiple. So, for example, usually a buyer will be far more willing to pay a 20X premium on a $50 item than on a $1000 item.

 

Mark,

I agree wholeheartedly. I paid more than 20X for that particular coin. However, I am not sure that I would have paid anymore than I did if the coin was in an MS65 Holder. I wasn't paying for the grade, I was paying for the toning. If it were graded MS65, it would have dropped to 7-8X premium instead of 20X.

 

BTW, If anyone has a 1883-O with that kind of toning, feel free to post a picture, I would love to see it.

[cpm9ball]

Yes, I do like the rainbows, but I'm not going to go overboard for them. For all we know, 10-15 years from now, toners will be out of vogue and values could drop like a rock.

 

At the FUN Show last January, a dealer had a beautifully matched pair of raw 1885's that I really liked. The obverse of the first was 75% rainbow with the southeast quadrant bright white. The reverse of the second was 75% rainbow with the southwest quadrant bright white. I told him that I thought they would look fantastic in an NGC multiholder. When I asked, "How much?", he said, "$900 for the pair." without even glancing my way. I guess he figured that I just had to have them. Even after I hesitated for a moment before saying anything, he still didn't look my way. So, I said, "That's too much. Thank you! Bye!"

 

Chris

 

I think you just proved my point in my previous post. What casued you to hesitate about buying two coins that you really liked was that they were priced at $40 each and you were scared to buy a coin at 10X wholesale value.

 

It wasn't that I was scared of a $450 (per coin) pricetag. I had $4,000 in cash in my pocket, but this dealer's attitude left a lot to be desired. Sorry, but no matter how beautiful the coins were, he lost a potential sale because of it.

 

I find your statement that people buy toned coins because they are in vogue to be inherently flawed.

 

Correction, please! If you go back and reread my statement, you will find that I didn't say that people buy them because they are in vogue. I said that 10-15 years from now they may fall out of vogue. I drew no conclusions as to why people are buying them.

 

Although different people find different coins attractive, there are many collectors that find rainbow toned coins the ultimate in eye appeal (myself included).

 

Me too!

 

Since the number of rainbow toned coins is not likely to sky rocket in the future, then you are saying that the demand for rainbow toned coins will decrease significantly in the future.

 

Bear with me, please. I'm not sure how to take this statement since the word "you" is both singular and plural case. Are you referring specifically to me or to rainbow-toned collectors in general? If you are referring to me, I made no such assertion. Again, all I said is that if they fall out of vogue, values could drop.

 

.........coin freaks like us.........

 

You've got that right!

 

I am not saying that I think you should have bought those matched Morgans for that price or any other for that matter. That is your decision alone. I am saying that $900 may have been a fair price for the coins if they had incredible toning. When I buy rainbow toned coins, I look at the coin and decide how much it is worth to me. Then I offer that much to the dealer. If the dealer declines the offer, then I assume that my price is below their buy minimum acceptable sell price in order to make a profit and I move on. However, one must realize that certain dealers will list rainbow toned coins at up to 50% over their cost on occasion and if your offer is 30% below their listed (advertised) price, they may still sell you the coin. There is no harm in making the offer, all they can do is say no.

 

I agree wholeheartedly! You know, I try to treat people as I would want them to treat me. I guess if he had just shown the slightest bit of courtesy, I may have made a counteroffer and might have taken them home. But, his attitude was so poor that I just couldn't bring myself to ignore it. I've found that most dealers at shows are more than willing to take the time with a prospective customer even if they don't make a sale, but then you run into one like this guy. Maybe he was just having a bad weekend. I don't know, but if his attitude was the same with others, I can understand why.

 

Here is a little exercise if you are interested. An 1886 Morgan Dollar in MS64 is about $50 untoned and very common. Go to Heritage's permanent auction archives and pull up every 1886 MS64 they have sold over the last year. Count the total number of coins and keep track of the number that have rainbow toning. You will notice that coins with minor rainbow toning usually get 2X wholesale. Coins with 25%-50% rainbow toning get 3-5X wholesale, and coins with the entire obverse, reverse, or extraordinary toning (vivid colors etc) fetch 6X and up. There are coins that exist that paying 20X-30X-40X wholesale price for the toning is appropriate because the coin is so beautiful that it makes it uniquely rare. I say that the reverse toned 1883-O in the original post is one of those coins that is worth minumum 20X wholesale value.

 

S O R R Y , I couldn't help myself. Ron Sirna has some in his collection that I would buy in a heartbeat. I think I have some idea what they're worth.

 

 

Thanks, Lehigh, for taking the time. If only that dealer had taken a teeny fraction of what you (singular ) just did.

 

Chris

[toneddollars]

LeHigh96,

 

That is a very good picture of that coin. Did you take it?

[lehigh96]

Chirs,

 

If i quote your post, my reply will be unreadable

 

I want to make one thing clear, at no time was I making an assumption about the amount of money you have or will spend on coins. The coin in your signature line is evidence that you are infact a coin freak and will spend significant money on coins.

 

The scared comment was in relation to the fact that most collectors feel uncomfortable buying coins unless they have the feeling that they can turn around and sell the coin for the same amount of money they paid for it. I thought this was the reason you were unwilling to pay the $900 for the coins based on your first sentence. However, you have now corrected me by letting me know that it was the dealers attitude that influenced your decision as much as the price.

 

Personally, I think that dealer is making a huge mistake trying to sell rainbow toned coins in that manner. If I was the dealer and a buyer asked me how much, I would have responded "make me an offer." If the buyer gave a lowball ridiculous answer, I would not consider him as a serious buyer and politely dismiss him. However, by letting the prospective buyer make the first offer, the dealer could have heard "I will pay $1,000" and the dealer says sold immediately. Any other reasonable offer could lead to negotiations that either end in a deal or not. This way, the dealer would never come off looking like someone who has prejudged his potential customer, which it appears this dealer did to you.

 

My real point in this whole thread is that some rainbow toned coins are worth a huge premium like my MS64 1883-O reverse toned Morgan. Others are not, like the PCGS slabbed medusa Morgan offered on E-Bay and I am still upset that a photo of that thing ended up in the thread

 

JK

 

 

[cpm9ball]

By the way, Lehigh, is that an O/O? Beautiful!

 

Chris

[robec1347]

BTW, If anyone has a 1883-O with that kind of toning, feel free to post a picture, I would love to see it.

 

Not exactly the rainbow coloring of the original one posted, but it is an 1883-O toner.

 

 

[cpm9ball]

The coin in your signature line is evidence that you are infact a coin freak and will spend significant money on coins.JK

 

I found it in a $100 Mixed P & D Bag of 2001 Kennedy's from the Mint.

 

Cost.........68c plus submission fees.

 

Chris

[K6AZ]

No matter how you slice it, the 62 on eBay is not a $800 coin. Most collectors of toned Morgans do not like the low MS grades. I had some with the type of reverse toning shown in the OP in 63 and the highest price I got for one was $125, this was two years ago.

[lehigh96]

No matter how you slice it, the 62 on eBay is not a $800 coin. Most collectors of toned Morgans do not like the low MS grades. I had some with the type of reverse toning shown in the OP in 63 and the highest price I got for one was $125, this was two years ago.

 

I think we can do a little better than $125, but I do think the MS63 range usually caps out at about $600 unless it is a real monster like some of the MS63 Battle Creeks. Here is one in between $125 and $600. I know what I paid, but I will let you guys decide what is worth to you!

 

 

I personally don't think that this coin even deserves the MS63 based on technical merit. The cheek is a mess and even though the toning covers rather well, it is still an MS62 that was bumped to an MS63 by the incredible toning (IMHO).

[lehigh96]

The coin in your signature line is evidence that you are infact a coin freak and will spend significant money on coins.JK

 

I found it in a $100 Mixed P & D Bag of 2001 Kennedy's from the Mint.

 

Cost.........68c plus submission fees.

 

Chris

 

WOW, what a lucky dog you are!

 

Bob, that is a great toner with really nice obverse die cracks, phenomenal photos as always

[CHABSENTIA]

What you quoted was my opinion alone.I could certainly pay that much but it doesn't represent value to me. I buy on eye appeal but there is a limit to what I will pay for that Eye appeal.

 

I did say that the value of such a transaction is worth it to some people.My 1881 S MS65 PL is worth more to be in eye appeal than the toned MS64.

 

What you say is true in many cases.

[World Colonial]

My comment is not based upon the price guides. It is based upon the price risk that exists for paying such a gigantic premium over the same coin simply based upon this preference for a particular eye appeal. Everyone is free to pay what they want for what they want. However, I do not consider using population statistics per the example you gave to be a reasonable basis for these valuations.

 

If you like the coin, then pay what you want. You or other collectors have or might have made money on these coins on the way up, but if this premium is reflective of the current market, my prediction is that these coins are going to be big money losers over the longer term if they are bought at those premiums today. From a financial standpoint, I see little difference between these premiums and those paid for ultra high grade moderns. With a graded population of almost 60,000, this particular coin is as common as the sand on the beach and there is a high risk that a future change in collector preferences could significantly decrease that premium.

 

As for what premium I would pay, it would vary. The premium I would pay for a toned Morgan is exactly zero because I do not collect them. I am willing to pay premiums for the coins I collect with good eye appeal but nothing close to 5-20 times.

[lehigh96]

My comment is not based upon the price guides. It is based upon the price risk that exists for paying such a gigantic premium over the same coin simply based upon this preference for a particular eye appeal. Everyone is free to pay what they want for what they want. However, I do not consider using population statistics per the example you gave to be a reasonable basis for these valuations.

 

If you like the coin, then pay what you want. You or other collectors have or might have made money on these coins on the way up, but if this premium is reflective of the current market, my prediction is that these coins are going to be big money losers over the longer term if they are bought at those premiums today. From a financial standpoint, I see little difference between these premiums and those paid for ultra high grade moderns. With a graded population of almost 60,000, this particular coin is as common as the sand on the beach and there is a high risk that a future change in collector preferences could significantly decrease that premium.

 

As for what premium I would pay, it would vary. The premium I would pay for a toned Morgan is exactly zero because I do not collect them. I am willing to pay premiums for the coins I collect with good eye appeal but nothing close to 5-20 times.

 

It concerns me that you say that the population statistics that I used are not a reasonable basis for the valuation of the coin, but then you use the same population statistics to support the claim that rainbow toned coins are overpriced. I realize that eye appeal is subjective and this will cause each collector to value eye appealing coins differently. However, you can't compare rainbow toned common date Morgans to ultra gem modern coins, it is apples to oranges.

 

I think I can better illustrate my point with photos. Based on the current price guides, an 1883-O MS64 Morgan and an 1885 MS64 Morgan are both $50 coins. However you can't look at the following coins and tell me that they worth the same amount of money, not now, not 5 years from now, not ever.

 

 

I think that you are trying to say that there is significant risk in buying rainbow toned coins that charge a premium of 5-20 times, and to a certain extent there is. If you want to invest $1,000 in coins, you can certainly buy 20 generic blast white 1885 MS64 Morgans and you won't lose much money after 10 years. But I promise, you won't make money either. From a collector standpoint, you can buy the coin on the left for $1,000 and 10 years from now it could very easily be market valued at $600, but it might very well be worth $1,500. So do you wan't your money in a bank earning simple interest or do you want to play the stock market. The choice is up to each of us as collectors.

 

BTW, I purchased the following 1886 NGC MS65 Morgan Dollar for $700 in 2002. I would say that the rainbow toned coin market has been relatively stable over the last 6 years, wouldn't you.