CAC Black Sticker

[lehigh96]

I would like to apologize in advance for creating another CAC thread but I just can't help myself. I purchased the following coin in the recent CSNS Signature Coin Auction. Since Heritage's photos are not the best, I was a little concerned that the coin was given a CAMEO designation that maybe it didn't deserve. However, when I saw the CAC sticker (black?) on it, I decided to bid on the coin. I ended up winning the coin and I am waiting for it to be delivered. Since CAC claims that the sticker is an indicator that the coin meets the standard for strict quality within it's grade, I assume that includes designations such as cameo. After all, if this coin is not an actual cameo, I'm out a few thousand dollars.

 

 

I guess what I am saying is that I will reserve my opinion about the CAC until I see the actual coin. With regards to the strange black sticker, I went on CAC's new website, entered the serial number, and the coin has the green sticker status, but the actual sticker is black. I have to say, I only own one other CAC stickered coin with the green sticker, I like the black one better.

[TomB]

There are two points to make here. The first is that the sticker is most likely green, but since it is a color-shifting sticker it might appear black to you in the static image displayed by Heritage. The second is that CAMEO is a designation and not a grade. Therefore, if CAC were only focused on properly graded coins they might ignore the designation. Please note that I am not stating the requirements for a CAC-stickered CAMEO coin, but keep in mind that designations and grades are two different animals.

[lehigh96]

There are two points to make here. The first is that the sticker is most likely green, but since it is a color-shifting sticker it might appear black to you in the static image displayed by Heritage. The second is that CAMEO is a designation and not a grade. Therefore, if CAC were only focused on properly graded coins they might ignore the designation. Please note that I am not stating the requirements for a CAC-stickered CAMEO coin, but keep in mind that designations and grades are two different animals.

 

I understand that, but it my mind it would be negligent of CAC to sticker a coin that has a stated grade and designation if they didn't believe that both the grade and designation were well deserved. If the CAC plans on giving stickers to CAMEO (DCAM etc.) designated coins based solely on grade, while not affirming the CAMEO etc. designation, they are going to be out of business very quickly IMHO.

[robec1347]

There are two points to make here. The first is that the sticker is most likely green, but since it is a color-shifting sticker it might appear black to you in the static image displayed by Heritage. The second is that CAMEO is a designation and not a grade. Therefore, if CAC were only focused on properly graded coins they might ignore the designation. Please note that I am not stating the requirements for a CAC-stickered CAMEO coin, but keep in mind that designations and grades are two different animals.

 

I understand that, but it my mind it would be negligent of CAC to sticker a coin that has a stated grade and designation if they didn't believe that both the grade and designation were well deserved. If the CAC plans on giving stickers to CAMEO (DCAM etc.) designated coins based solely on grade, while not affirming the CAMEO etc. designation, they are going to be out of business very quickly IMHO.

 

I'll have to agree with Paul on this one. If CAC is grading or judging the coins based on what the TPG awarded the coin (in essence giving their approval of the evaluation given) they would be remiss in their job if the designation was not part of the package. If that were the case, they are just taking up space and are of no value.

[MikeInFL]

There's no sticker or slab in the world that will protect one from buying the wrong coin sight-unseen. Said even more bluntly, I think you're setting yourself up for failure -- and it isn't the CAC's fault. However I truly hope that's not the case. Respectfully submitted...Mike

[lehigh96]

There's no sticker or slab in the world that will protect one from buying the wrong coin sight-unseen. Said even more bluntly, I think you're setting yourself up for failure -- and it isn't the CAC's fault. However I truly hope that's not the case. Respectfully submitted...Mike

 

I don't really know what that is supposed to mean. I am guessing that you don't think the coin deserves the CAMEO designation based on Heritage's photos. From the photos, the reverse looks solid to me. The obverse is a little suspect, but the graders at NGC gave it a CAMEO and CAC gave it a sticker; both groups know more about coin grading than I do I might add. Based on that information and my view of the photo, I placed the bid.

 

It's not failure, it's risk which is a part of life. You may consider it an unnecessary or even foolish risk, while I do not. To me, It is no different that entering into a risky real estate proposition or buying shares of an unproven stock. Hell, it's no different than making a big bluff on the river with nothing in a poker game because you think the other guy will fold. You are taking a risk in all of these situations, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Hopefully, you win more than you lose.

 

In the end, I'm not going to lose thousands of dollars on this coin. If I don't like it and don't think it deserves the cameo designation, I will dump it. I will probably lose hundreds of dollars, but I do that several times a night at a poker table anyway, so what 's the difference.

[just-john]

http://www.cheapslabs.com/index.php?action=item&id=31773&prevaction=category&previd=5&prevstart=48

Cheap Slab store $27.00 MS 66 PCGS but its not CAMEO and no CAC sticker

But the up side you could only loss $27 BUCKS good luck with your poker

[lehigh96]

There are two points to make here. The first is that the sticker is most likely green, but since it is a color-shifting sticker it might appear black to you in the static image displayed by Heritage. The second is that CAMEO is a designation and not a grade. Therefore, if CAC were only focused on properly graded coins they might ignore the designation. Please note that I am not stating the requirements for a CAC-stickered CAMEO coin, but keep in mind that designations and grades are two different animals.

 

BTW, Thank you Tom for clearing up the mysterious black sticker situation. Your explanation makes perfect sense. I still wish the sticker was black though.

[MikeInFL]

There's no sticker or slab in the world that will protect one from buying the wrong coin sight-unseen. Said even more bluntly, I think you're setting yourself up for failure -- and it isn't the CAC's fault. However I truly hope that's not the case. Respectfully submitted...Mike

 

I don't really know what that is supposed to mean. I am guessing that you don't think the coin deserves the CAMEO designation based on Heritage's photos. From the photos, the reverse looks solid to me. The obverse is a little suspect, but the graders at NGC gave it a CAMEO and CAC gave it a sticker; both groups know more about coin grading than I do I might add. Based on that information and my view of the photo, I placed the bid.

 

It's not failure, it's risk which is a part of life. You may consider it an unnecessary or even foolish risk, while I do not. To me, It is no different that entering into a risky real estate proposition or buying shares of an unproven stock. Hell, it's no different than making a big bluff on the river with nothing in a poker game because you think the other guy will fold. You are taking a risk in all of these situations, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Hopefully, you win more than you lose.

 

In the end, I'm not going to lose thousands of dollars on this coin. If I don't like it and don't think it deserves the cameo designation, I will dump it. I will probably lose hundreds of dollars, but I do that several times a night at a poker table anyway, so what 's the difference.

 

Would you buy a piece of real estate with only photos and the seller's description? Would you buy a stock without the company having filed any SEC-mandatory filings? Would you try and bluff someone who knew your hole cards?

 

In a more serious and direct manner.... My response had nothing at all to do with the coin in question (frankly I don't follow the series well enough and Heritage's pics of proof are both terrible and inconsistent) and everything to do with your decision making process in choosing to bid/purchase said coin without having seen the coin yourself (or having it viewed by someone you trust) and basing your bidding decision worth several thousand dollars (now ammended to hundreds) on a NGC grade and a CAC sticker. That's what I would respectfully call setting yourself up for failure -- you're playing a 4 of diamonds and 4 of hearts with the ten, jack, queen, and king of spades showing and going against a very conservative player across the table.

 

However, if you think that NGC, who spent a few seconds looking at the coin, or the CAC (whose policy on the subject you have admitted ignorance of) can do a better job of evaluating coins than you can, and you are as risk tolerant as you describe, then what you've done is sounds perfectly reasonable, and I hope the river matches your pair in the hole and wish you nothing but good luck.

 

Take care...Mike

[lehigh96]

Mike,

 

You are really making this more complicated than it really is. I bid on a coin that either will be what the professional graders say it is or it won't. The coin cost a few thousand dollars and if it is as advertised, I will be very satisfied. If it is not, I will probably dump the coin in the near future and will probably lose hundreds of dollars in the process. I bear full responsibility for the outcome which will ultimately be based on my evaluation of the coin once I have it in hand.

 

However, I assume you are a professional in the world of numismatics. Going to coin shows and major auctions is probably your job. You must be able to evaluate the coins you are buying because you have to be able to sell them for a profit. I on the other hand am a collector, not a dealer, and I have no intention of selling the coins I buy. I don't have the luxury of attending major coin shows, and am forced to buy coins over the internet using the tools available to me which are the TPG's assigned grade and the photo provided.

 

Assume for a moment that the coin arrives and I don't believe that it meets the standard for the CAMEO designation. I end up selling the coin and losing $500 in the process. How would it be any different if I bought a plane ticket, booked a hotel room, attended the auction, viewed the coin myself and found out the same information and decided not to bid on the coin. I would be down the same amount of money.

 

With regards to your poker analogy, I can only offer you the following. The real sin in that hand that you describe is how two red fours made it past the flop in the first place. This would only happen if the pocket fours bluffed the flop, and the conservative player just called. In that instance the conservative player either has a marginal hand that he can't raise or is slow playing a monster. When the fourth spade to a straight flush hits the turn, a conservative player is exactly the player you want across from you, because unless he has the ace or nine of spades, he will probably fold to a large bet, even laying down hands like top set or a flopped straight.

 

This is a very stimulating discussion that I would love to continue. I promise that I don't mean my comments to be insulting or offensive. If I cross any lines, please let me know.

 

With regards, Paul

[leeg]

Historically, Heritage has done a poor job imaging Cameo coins. Case in point,

 

Heritage Image (No longer my coin):

 

 

 

My Images:

 

 

 

May not be the case with your coin though, but wish you well with it. There are several quality dealers who offer Auction Representation and will look at coins for you, prior to purchase. Save you some dough for the poker tabels in the future.

 

[MarkFeld]

It is my understanding that a CAC sticker is meant to affirm the grade and (if there is one) the designation, as well. I would also hesitate to jump to conclusions regarding the accuracy of a coin's grade and/or designation based upon an image.

[DC Dawg]

It is my understanding that a CAC sticker is meant to affirm the grade and (if there is one) the designation, as well. I would also hesitate to jump to conclusions regarding the accuracy of a coin's grade and/or designation based upon an image.

Mark... not to start a "war" but, according to the CAC website, the green label means "that a coin has met CAC's stringent grading standards" and the gold label "denotes that a coin has Exceeded CAC's grading standards." The site does not say that the stickers mean that the CAC evaluators agree with the grade or the coin may be under graded. It says that the coins "meets" or "exceeded CAC's grading standards."

 

These are the images of the labels posted on the CAC website:

As an analyst who works in the public policy areas, I look at words to understand the the implementation of policy. The words tell me that a coin stickered by CAC meets their unpublished standard.

 

Further, the FAQ says, "CAC’s rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade." This means that the CAC is not "affrim[ing] the grade" but judging the coin on that unpublished standard.

 

Apparently, the CAC does not just affirm the grade but passes an additional judgment on the coin. It is not saying that coins are over graded and that the TPGs are not doing their jobs, as asserted by Laura Sperber, but that the coins are better than others in the same grade.

 

This leaves me very confused. I thought this is what I would hire someone like you to do for me if I was in the market for premium quality rare coins? If the CAC is doing your job, then wouldn't this cut into your business? I could just look for CAC stickers for coins I want at auction and do my own bidding--even by absentee bidding--bypassing your services.

 

We know I have been against the concept of the CAC. But I will always listen to a convincing explanation that would add to my knowledge to rethink my analysis. So how do I correlate this information to see if my analysis is correct?

 

Scott

[Oldtrader3]

Heritage has shown pictures of my own coins that they were selling (and some that I have bought) that were actually cameo and their pictures did not show cameo surfaces. I have trouble getting these surfaces to show myself in my scans. I would be inclined to give CAC and NGC (who is very conservative grading cameos) the benefit of the doubt, at least until you see the coin for yourself.

 

Every cameo coin that I have owned or had graded by NGC, has been cameo graded properly.

[MarkFeld]

It is my understanding that a CAC sticker is meant to affirm the grade and (if there is one) the designation, as well. I would also hesitate to jump to conclusions regarding the accuracy of a coin's grade and/or designation based upon an image.

Mark... not to start a "war" but, according to the CAC website, the green label means "that a coin has met CAC's stringent grading standards" and the gold label "denotes that a coin has Exceeded CAC's grading standards." The site does not say that the stickers mean that the CAC evaluators agree with the grade or the coin may be under graded. It says that the coins "meets" or "exceeded CAC's grading standards."

 

These are the images of the labels posted on the CAC website:

As an analyst who works in the public policy areas, I look at words to understand the the implementation of policy. The words tell me that a coin stickered by CAC meets their unpublished standard.

 

Further, the FAQ says, "CAC’s rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade." This means that the CAC is not "affrim[ing] the grade" but judging the coin on that unpublished standard.

 

Apparently, the CAC does not just affirm the grade but passes an additional judgment on the coin. It is not saying that coins are over graded and that the TPGs are not doing their jobs, as asserted by Laura Sperber, but that the coins are better than others in the same grade.

 

This leaves me very confused. I thought this is what I would hire someone like you to do for me if I was in the market for premium quality rare coins? If the CAC is doing your job, then wouldn't this cut into your business? I could just look for CAC stickers for coins I want at auction and do my own bidding--even by absentee bidding--bypassing your services.

 

We know I have been against the concept of the CAC. But I will always listen to a convincing explanation that would add to my knowledge to rethink my analysis. So how do I correlate this information to see if my analysis is correct?

 

Scott

Scott, in answer to what I think you're asking:

 

1) Yes, you could hire me or someone else of your choice to screen coins on a sight-seen basis for you.

 

2) If collectors who would otherwise utilize my services to screen coins start buying CAC coins sight-unseen, yes it could cut into my business.

 

3) Many coins are accurately graded, solid for the grade, etc. but that doesn't mean I or someone else will like them. For that reason, among others, I don't recommend that collectors buy coins sight-unseen. But that is of course, up to them.

[MikeInFL]

Mike,

 

You are really making this more complicated than it really is. I bid on a coin that either will be what the professional graders say it is or it won't. The coin cost a few thousand dollars and if it is as advertised, I will be very satisfied. If it is not, I will probably dump the coin in the near future and will probably lose hundreds of dollars in the process. I bear full responsibility for the outcome which will ultimately be based on my evaluation of the coin once I have it in hand.

 

However, I assume you are a professional in the world of numismatics. Going to coin shows and major auctions is probably your job. You must be able to evaluate the coins you are buying because you have to be able to sell them for a profit. I on the other hand am a collector, not a dealer, and I have no intention of selling the coins I buy. I don't have the luxury of attending major coin shows, and am forced to buy coins over the internet using the tools available to me which are the TPG's assigned grade and the photo provided.

 

Assume for a moment that the coin arrives and I don't believe that it meets the standard for the CAMEO designation. I end up selling the coin and losing $500 in the process. How would it be any different if I bought a plane ticket, booked a hotel room, attended the auction, viewed the coin myself and found out the same information and decided not to bid on the coin. I would be down the same amount of money.

 

With regards to your poker analogy, I can only offer you the following. The real sin in that hand that you describe is how two red fours made it past the flop in the first place. This would only happen if the pocket fours bluffed the flop, and the conservative player just called. In that instance the conservative player either has a marginal hand that he can't raise or is slow playing a monster. When the fourth spade to a straight flush hits the turn, a conservative player is exactly the player you want across from you, because unless he has the ace or nine of spades, he will probably fold to a large bet, even laying down hands like top set or a flopped straight.

 

This is a very stimulating discussion that I would love to continue. I promise that I don't mean my comments to be insulting or offensive. If I cross any lines, please let me know.

 

With regards, Paul

 

Paul,

 

Thank you for the thoughtful response, and I haven't taken any of the comments to be insulting or offensive.

 

It just seemed to me, by the tone of your original post, that you were setting yourself up for a fall and preparing "it's the CAC's fault" as your parachute. Perhaps I was reading too much into your words, and if I have I apologize for my assumptions and/or coming on a bit strong/direct (it is my nature).

 

That said, I'm not a dealer. I am a collector just like you, and I attend a few shows a year at best here in Florida. However, rather than gamble on if a coin is all there in an auction I don't have the ability to preview, I have a number of friends and a dealer or two with whom I have a trusted relationships with and utlitlize to be my "eyes on the auction" for me...

 

...but that's just me and how I prefer to do my collecting. If you enjoy the gambling aspect of collecting, who am I to judge? All I'm saying, essentially is don't blame the CAC for the results of your own actions. Respectfully...Mike

 

p.s. thank you for the poker lesson.

[lehigh96]

Mike,

 

I agree that we have vastly different collecting styles. I also agree that I gamble when I collect coins, but it goes with my nature and environment. I work in a casino, I play in a casino, and I spend about 70 hours a week in a casino. When I was initially contemplating bidding on this coin, I was hesitant because of the photo. When I saw that the coin had a CAC sticker, I decided that it was worth the risk to bid without seeing it. I will certainly not blame the CAC if my gamble doesn't work out, but I will have a hard time trusting the value of the CAC sticker moving forward.

 

Pursuant to your earlier post, I contacted the CAC via e-mail and asked them the following question. "My question is regarding the overall policies of the CAC. When the CAC stickers a coin, is the sticker affirming both the grade and designation listed by the third party grading company?

 

This was their response:

 

Dear Paul:

 

I apologize. I misunderstood your question. If we place our sticker on the

coin we are agreeing with the designation.

Michelle Kumpf

 

Michelle Kumpf

CAC

908-781-9101 (phone)

908-781-0746 (fax)

michelle.kumpf@caccoin.com

 

I assumed you were a dealer because your posts are very well thought out, and reflect someone who has extensive knowledge of numismatics. I think it is great that you know dealers that will "be your eyes" and preview your coins for you. Utilizing that method would probably save me money and lessen my own risk in the process.

 

At least 95% of my entire collection consists of rainbow toned coins, and it is rare that I ever even look at a price guide before purchasing a coin. Additionally, I usually don't care what grade NGC or PCGS gave the coin, especially when purchasing Morgan Dollars. If I like the coin (specifically the toning and eye appeal), I will buy it regardless of whether the holder says MS63, MS64, or MS65. Some collectors can't stand to buy a coin if they feel they didn't get a good deal or if they think they will lose money if they decide to resell the coin. I can't stand to live with the fact that I let a beautiful coin get away because I didn't want to shell out a premium to obtain it. For example, Anaconda had a fantastic Appalachian toned Jefferson a few years ago in their inventory. I got so caught up in haggling about the price, that I lost the coin to another buyer. I have regretted it ever since, and often look at the picture of the coin that should have been mine. Anaconda recently picked up three more appalachians. I bought all three immediately and paid well for them. You can view them by clicking on my set in my signature line if you want. I just want you to know that although our styles in obtaining coins is vastly different, our philosophy about coin collecting is very similar.

 

Take care my friend: Paul

 

PS: YW & BTW, the only thing I like to talk about more than coins is poker, so feel free to bring the subject up frequently.

 

 

 

[MikeInFL]

Paul,

 

Thanks for your response, again, and thanks for sharing that e-mail from CAC as it answers a question central to this issue (and I suspect other collectors will be interested to understand this).

 

That said, please entertain me for a moment. With respect to the following...

 

When I saw that the coin had a CAC sticker, I decided that it was worth the risk to bid without seeing it. I will certainly not blame the CAC if my gamble doesn't work out, but I will have a hard time trusting the value of the CAC sticker moving forward.

 

...I have two (loaded) questions:

 

#1 -- Will you simliarly not trust NGC should the coin not live up to your grade or designation expectations?

#2 -- Do you always form opinions that you "have a hard time trusting" on a single instance, and if so, what is your stance on PCGS and NGC overgraded or problematic-yet-slabbed coins?

 

Just wondering....

 

Leadingly yours...Mike

 

p.s. you are aware that the Appalachians are understood by many to be AT, aren't you?

[MikeInFL]

The words tell me that a coin stickered by CAC meets their unpublished standard.

 

Further, the FAQ says, "CAC’s rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade." This means that the CAC is not "affrim[ing] the grade" but judging the coin on that unpublished standard.

 

Apparently, the CAC does not just affirm the grade but passes an additional judgment on the coin. It is not saying that coins are over graded and that the TPGs are not doing their jobs, as asserted by Laura Sperber, but that the coins are better than others in the same grade.

 

Scott,

 

I'm not Mark, so please accept my apology in advance for sticking my keyboard where it wasn't asked for...

 

I believe you are making a mistake in stating the standard is not published. Their standard are defined (although perhaps not to the extent that public policy is described). Specifically, in the FAQ you quote, they state:

 

5. I noticed that CAC uses the term “premium quality” to describe coins that receive a CAC sticker. How does CAC define premium quality?

 

For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker

 

While you might argue (and I would tend to agree) that the standard could be more clear, it certainly has been published. Furthermore, I would suggest it is safe to assume that in so stickering, CAC is in fact affirming the grade and its adherence to its own standards as defined above.

 

Respectfully yours...Mike

[lehigh96]

Paul,

 

Thanks for your response, again, and thanks for sharing that e-mail from CAC as it answers a question central to this issue (and I suspect other collectors will be interested to understand this).

 

That said, please entertain me for a moment. With respect to the following...

 

When I saw that the coin had a CAC sticker, I decided that it was worth the risk to bid without seeing it. I will certainly not blame the CAC if my gamble doesn't work out, but I will have a hard time trusting the value of the CAC sticker moving forward.

 

...I have two (loaded) questions:

 

#1 -- Will you simliarly not trust NGC should the coin not live up to your grade or designation expectations?

#2 -- Do you always form opinions that you "have a hard time trusting" on a single instance, and if so, what is your stance on PCGS and NGC overgraded or problematic-yet-slabbed coins?

 

Just wondering....

 

Leadingly yours...Mike

 

p.s. you are aware that the Appalachians are understood by many to be AT, aren't you?

 

Mike,

 

I am going to answer both questions at once if I may. NGC grades thousands upon thousands of coins every year and is a reputable company with a history of excellence. Having said that, due to the volume they deal with, they are going to make some mistakes with regard to grade and or designations. Of course, I think they make much fewer mistakes than you think they make . We all understand that and deal with it as a fact of life. In fact, I bet that NGC officials themselves would admit that mistakes do happen.

 

However, the CAC is a brand new company whose sole purpose is to validate/verify the grade assigned by the TPG. They are just starting out and have no real reputation other than that of the numismatists that started the company. In fact, if you read these boards, they already have a negative reputation. It is the responsibility of the management of the CAC to ensure that they don't make mistakes. If they do, it will be their shoddy performance that makes them irrelevant, not my impulsiveness. There is an old saying that you never get a second chance to make a first impression. If the CAC makes a bad first impression with me, that's it. IMO that is business. In the casino business, if a first time visitor is unhappy, they don't come back again, they go to anther casino. With regards to TPG overgraded coins, I try not to buy them and hope that a successful CAC company will help me in my efforts. With regards to problematic slabbed coins, such as AT ones...hmmm....

 

 

In summary, the TPG's assign grades to coin with as much accuracy as they can. IMO the CAC has declared it their job (purpose) to weed out the mistakes made by the TPG's. The CAC set their own standard, all I will do as the consumer is hold them to it.

 

Sincerely, Paul

 

PS. I am aware that many believe that appalachians are AT, but you should know by reading my posts that I am not someone who avoids AT coins like they have the plague. Heck I purposefully put together a collection of 20th century AT type coins. I also remember reading grumblings about AT when the Battle Creek coins hit.

[MikeInFL]

Thanks for the response Paul.

 

I still think you are being a bit hasty in judging things based on a single example bought essentially sight-unseen from an auction (which stacks the odds against you to begin with...and which I hope you acknowledge). Furthermore, judging others by a single example is not the way that business works at all (or at least the business dealings I've had), although your point on a first impresion is a good one.

 

That said, you are certainly entitled to and I can and do respect your opinion, and I am unlikely to change it despite the protests.

 

Sorry for the short response as I have to get to bed. Mornings and I don't mix well to begin with, and tomorrow's an early one. Have a nice night...Mike

 

p.s. I am/was aware of your position on AT coins, I was just having a bit of fun.

[lehigh96]

Thanks for the response Paul.

 

I still think you are being a bit hasty in judging things based on a single example bought essentially sight-unseen from an auction (which stacks the odds against you to begin with...and which I hope you acknowledge). Furthermore, judging others by a single example is not the way that business works at all (or at least the business dealings I've had), although your point on a first impresion is a good one.

 

That said, you are certainly entitled to and I can and do respect your opinion, and I am unlikely to change it despite the protests.

 

Sorry for the short response as I have to get to bed. Mornings and I don't mix well to begin with, and tomorrow's an early one. Have a nice night...Mike

 

p.s. I am/was aware of your position on AT coins, I was just having a bit of fun.

 

Mike,

 

I just want to say that you are awesome. I love having an online debate with you. And I will certainly admit that buying coins sight unseen exposes me to significant monetary risk, although in poker terms its probably more like holding AQ suited vs KK than it is two red fours vs. four cards on the board to a royal flush.

 

However, I don't judge businesses by a single example unless it is the first example. IMO, if the CAC makes a mistake the first time with me, it then becomes their burden to prove to me that their service level has improved in order for me to give them a second chance.

 

But we should really just hope that both NGC and the CAC are right on the money and that Heritage's photo just stinks. Gamble-Gamble!

 

Take care man, Paul

[lehigh96]

Just as an update, I received the coin from Heritage and I believe that both NGC and CAC have properly graded the CAMEO designation of this coin. I have posted a side by side photo comparison of my photo (which is terrible) and Heritage's photo. I am happy with the coin and have decided to make it a permanent addition to my collection.

 

 

Gamble-Gamble

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm glad you are happy with your purchase. That does appear to be a very nice nickel.

[TomB]

I'm glad to see that the Jefferson is a winner.

[Coindude]

That's a nice coin, although the pics don't do it justice I'm sure. Heritage doesn't do it justice either. If you want, send it to me, I'll take pics of it for free just because.. well, just because. I can send references upon request. A cameo like that needs good pictures. PM me, I'll seriously take good pics of the coin for free.

[Oldtrader3]

Glad to hear that it has worked out for you. My experience with Heritage and photos is not a good one. That makes it doubly difficult to make a decision and commit large dollar amounts for a coin that Heritage is incapable of making a good picture of. Unfortunately, this is often the case with Heritage photos. I do not know how they stay in business with such a cavalier attitude towards their customers, both buyers and sellers. Photographs that they displayed of the last group of coins that I sold through them, in one of their Internet auctions, cost me many dollars in sales realized.

[MikeInFL]

[RareSov]

Looks very nice from your photo, congrats

[michael]

you should be really proud