Updated 4-3: What action should I take with respect to my client?

[MikeInFL]

Mark, Personally, I'd give it a bit more time before contacting the postal inspector. There could be many explanations as to the delay in communication (many of which would have me worried about the health/welfare of your client), but I'd probably sit tight for another week or two before taking any action...Mike

[EZ_E]

I can't see him trying to rip me off either, and in the past he hasn't been a procrastinator. I would be angry, rather than concerned if I didn't think that there must have been some type of illness or emergency.

 

I lead the ranks of procrastinators (my favorite day of the week is tomorrow ) but whether purchasing or selling, I either make an immediate payment or send the coin out immediately upon receipt of payment. I guess that it is all where one's priorities lie.

 

 

[wayneherndon]

This is a good reminder that we all should be a bit more explicit in our agreements. Imagine how much more confused this would be if Mark's customer waited 2 weeks to pick the coin up at the PO. Or, what if he advised Mark at the end of the return privilege via email or phone that the coin was being returned but then took a month to ship it back. It is not clear how either of these cases would be handled under the return privilege.

 

In addition to specifying the length of the return privilege, we should specify when it begins (upon attempted delivery or actual receipt) and how a return is effectuated. For example, the terms could require that the customer both give the dealer notice during the return period window that the coin is being returned and actually ship the coin within the return period window. This would allow Mark to relist the coin during the return trip and have a reasonable expectation of a prompt return.

 

Most all of us in this industry are very trusting and very sloppy with nailing down terms of sale.

 

Also, while I agree with Pat that a decision should be able to be made in a few hours (actually it is frequently minutes or even less), the ANA dealer code of ethics dictates a period even longer than Mark's. Here is a cut and paste from the ANA's website:

 

"As an ANA member dealer, I agree to comply with the following principles:

....

To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion-related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer’s receipt thereof or my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier.

If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer’s receipt of said coin from me."

 

Accordingly, I believe you should increase the time you allow your customers for returns.

 

WH

[MarkFeld]

..Accordingly, I believe you should increase the time you allow your customers for returns.

Wayne, as best I can remember, I have literally never had a problem with my stated return policy. The few clients who have wanted or needed additional time, for any reason, have always received it.

[gmarguli]

Also, while I agree with Pat that a decision should be able to be made in a few hours (actually it is frequently minutes or even less), the ANA dealer code of ethics dictates a period even longer than Mark's. Here is a cut and paste from the ANA's website:

 

"As an ANA member dealer, I agree to comply with the following principles:

....

To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion-related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer’s receipt thereof or my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier.

If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer’s receipt of said coin from me."

 

Accordingly, I believe you should increase the time you allow your customers for returns.

 

 

The ANA is insane / stupid. I give 3 days from receipt or first date of attempted delivery. Want 15 days or 15 months, that's fine, but a 1% per day restocking fee will be applied.

[TomB]

I had not addressed the ANA standards for return in this case because I could not find anywhere on Mark's site where he mentions affiliation with the ANA. However, I agree with Wayne in that most dealers do not write out their terms in a completely unambiguous manner.

[wayneherndon]

..Accordingly, I believe you should increase the time you allow your customers for returns.

Wayne, as best I can remember, I have literally never had a problem with my stated return policy. The few clients who have wanted or needed additional time, for any reason, have always received it.

 

Then you shouldn't have any issue with increasing the time to meet the ANA standard.

 

Reputable dealers (and I of course include you in that category) should abide by the conduct standards set by the ANA. If you think they are unreasonable, then work to change them. It is in all of our interests to support the ANA's (and other industry organizations') efforts to establish a baseline for consumer confidence in numismatic transactions. Only a small percent of coins are returned in any event and of those most do so well before the end of the return privilege anyway. In the unlikely event you have a customers who you consider abused the privilege you can either stop dealing with them or specify terms for future transactions that protect your interests.

 

For dealers not willing to put up with retail customers' insecurities and eccentricities and abide by the rules and standards the industry has put in place to protect collector interests, there is always wholesale.

 

WH

[wayneherndon]

I had not addressed the ANA standards for return in this case because I could not find anywhere on Mark's site where he mentions affiliation with the ANA. However, I agree with Wayne in that most dealers do not write out their terms in a completely unambiguous manner.

 

Actually, IMO, anyone who considers themselves a dealer should live up to the standards established by the ANA and PNG irrespective of whether or not they choose to be a member of either organization. Obviously, if they are not members compliance with the standards can not be forced but I believe each dealer should voluntarily agree to comply. I understand that many dealers (and collectors) have issues with both organizations but at a minimum the consumer protection standards should be adhered to by all dealers for the betterment of the hobby.

 

I realize that compliance by all dealers is wishful thinking but I believe there is hope for at least nudging Mark to comply.

 

WH

[wayneherndon]

 

The ANA is insane / stupid. I give 3 days from receipt or first date of attempted delivery. Want 15 days or 15 months, that's fine, but a 1% per day restocking fee will be applied.

 

Conversely, there appears to be no hope for Greg....

 

WH

[gmarguli]

In the unlikely event you have a customers who you consider abused the privilege you can either stop dealing with them or specify terms for future transactions that protect your interests.

 

I assume that you are not suggesting that the dealer specify terms that violate the ANA's. You'd still give the abusive customer a full 10 days minimum (30 if they decide to have the coin graded) after receipt per ANA guidelines. More strict terms, but still 10 (30) days minimum.

 

 

For dealers not willing to put up with retail customers' insecurities and eccentricities and abide by the rules and standards the industry has put in place to protect collector interests, there is always wholesale.

 

Of course you'd still offer the wholesaler 10 full days to return per ANA guidelines. A customer is a customer regardless of whether they are retail or wholesale.

 

BTW, I'm very impressed you could find anything on the ANA web site. It's awful, outright pathetic, and rarely works properly. Their web master should be fired.

[EZ_E]

 

The ANA is insane / stupid. I give 3 days from receipt or first date of attempted delivery. Want 15 days or 15 months, that's fine, but a 1% per day restocking fee will be applied.

 

Conversely, there appears to be no hope for Greg....

 

WH

 

I agree with Greg. You'd have to be a insufficiently_thoughtful_person to take over 3 days to decide whether to keep a coin or not. I usually make my decision w/i the first 10 seconds because I almost always go with my first impression even if I try to convince myself otherwise.

[braddick]

Why is it collectors, when they order a coin on memo, want the coin right now (you know what I mean...), but when it comes to returning a coin it takes awhile to 'get around to it'?

 

It's where I now no longer send a coin out without payment first (with a generous return policy). I find, that with payment in hand, if a coin doesn't meet the exacting standards of the buyer, it is pretty quickly returned to me.

 

Interesting how that works. Human nature, I suppose.

[wayneherndon]

 

I assume that you are not suggesting that the dealer specify terms that violate the ANA's. You'd still give the abusive customer a full 10 days minimum (30 if they decide to have the coin graded) after receipt per ANA guidelines. More strict terms, but still 10 (30) days minimum.

 

No, in these rare situations, I stick with the required return privilege lengths but do one or more of the following (a) not give a discount I might otherwise have given (to offset the potential for hassle) (b) ship the coin to the customer via overnight mail and pass the shipping cost to the customer to save (in Mark's example) a week of Registered Mail travel time © in the event of return, require the customer to return the coin via overnight carrier at his expense (to save perhaps another week), (d) require prepayment from the customer so that it is his money sitting inactive rather than mine, (e) advise that returns will be for store credit only. I suppose even a restocking charge is a possibility although I abhor them and would politely decline to do business with someone rather than impose a restocking charge.

 

For dealers not willing to put up with retail customers' insecurities and eccentricities and abide by the rules and standards the industry has put in place to protect collector interests, there is always wholesale.

 

Of course you'd still offer the wholesaler 10 full days to return per ANA guidelines. A customer is a customer regardless of whether they are retail or wholesale.

 

Frankly, I'm not sure the return privilege required by the ANA applies to dealers. The code doesn't say it applies in dealer-to-dealer transactions but it also doesn't say it doesn't. In my case I'm not really concerned about it because the dealers I do business with would be too embarrassed to return a coin unless it was pre-arranged (e.g., being sent to their customer on approval). And if they did, I'd still allow the return.

 

BTW, I'm very impressed you could find anything on the ANA web site. It's awful, outright pathetic, and rarely works properly. Their web master should be fired.

 

Hold your applause. All I did was Google "American Numismatic Association return privilege" and clicked the first item that came up.

 

WH

[MarkFeld]

 

I realize that compliance by all dealers is wishful thinking but I believe there is hope for at least nudging Mark to comply.

Wayne, here is my updated website language, aimed at complying with the ANA guidelines, while not getting overly complicated/wordy: "Ten day unconditional return privilege from the time coin is received. Additional time may be extended upon request."

 

By the way, what does the "other transmittal" part of "(15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material" mean? Thanks.

 

 

[braddick]

"Hold your applause. All I did was Google "American Numismatic Association return privilege" and clicked the first item that came up."

 

WH

__________________

 

That's odd... I just did the same thing and came up with this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wayneherndon]

I realize that compliance by all dealers is wishful thinking but I believe there is hope for at least nudging Mark to comply.

Wayne, here is my updated website language, aimed at complying with the ANA guidelines, while not getting overly complicated/wordy: "Ten day unconditional return privilege from the time coin is received. Additional time may be extended upon request."

 

By the way, what does the "other transmittal" part of "(15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material" mean? Thanks.

 

 

Mark, thanks for making this change. I believe it was the right course of action. Also, I wish you the best of luck with your customer in this situation. Typically, these things all work out and I hope this case is not an exception.

 

The language you reference is awkward at best. I believe the what they are trying to say is 15 days from mailing by the dealer or 10 days from receipt by the customer (or attempted delivery). I believe that is the only way to reconcile the somewhat ambiguous and potentially contradictory provisions. I would interpret "recorded date of receipt" to be receipt by a shipping company. I think "other transmittal" was intended to be a catchall provision to cover any type of shipping although "mailing" or "shipping" would be equally encompassing. About the only other way to "transmit" a coin would be in person delivery and and in that case, the 15 day period would be inapplicable anyway. Isn't Ron Sirna (ANA general counsel) a member here? I'll ask him to take a look at this and see that it is revised to make a bit more sense.

 

WH

[rrantique]

"Hold your applause. All I did was Google "American Numismatic Association return privilege" and clicked the first item that came up."

 

WH

__________________

 

That's odd... I just did the same thing and came up with this:

 

[wayneherndon]

"Hold your applause. All I did was Google "American Numismatic Association return privilege" and clicked the first item that came up."

 

WH

__________________

 

That's odd... I just did the same thing and came up with this:

 

 

 

 

Haha. That's your cache playing tricks on you.

 

WH

[MarkFeld]

Thanks Wayne, on all counts.

 

Edited to add: I thought I read somewhere that Ron Sirna was no longer general counsel for the ANA, but I might be mistaken.

[gmarguli]

Isn't Ron Sirna (ANA general counsel) a member here? I'll ask him to take a look at this and see that it is revised to make a bit more sense.

 

Perhaps ask him to make it more real world. Seriously, 10 or 15 days is beyond acceptable and open to outright abuse with a buyer shopping the coin around. I could understand 7 calendar days and even accept and follow that, but there is no way in hell I'd give someone 15 days. I generally know within 10 seconds if I am going to keep the coin or not.

 

And do these terms apply to auctions or just coin sales?

[wayneherndon]

Mark, if Ron is no longer general counsel, I missed that somehow. I did send him a note earlier.

 

Greg, I'm fine with the length of times set forth in the code of ethics. If you have an issue with it, you should raise it with the ANA.

 

Here's the language as it relates to auctions:

 

"In an auction sale of consigned material, the return privilege period may be made available only to mail bidders, and the period for the return of such material may be limited to five (5) days from the mail bidder’s receipt thereof or fifteen (15) days from the bidder’s receipt of the invoice for such material or my attempted delivery of my invoice therefor, whichever time period shall be the earlier."

 

WH

[Oldtrader3]

Like most good collectors, I decide within a day on approval and pay or ship with an explanation of the return. Otherwise, I pay that same day by credit card or PayPal, unequivicaly. Unless the customer had a medical emergency, or was out of town, but I still would have had my spouse take care of it.

[CHABSENTIA]

If it was so hard to find the ANA procedures then why would anybody assume the prospective Buyer was aware of them?Mark stated in a previous post that he has had no problem with this particular buyer in three years. Regardless of whether the buyer was aware of the ANA procedures or not then why would he think that Mark abided by these suggestions?

 

 

Something has happened to change the picture if this situation is the first in a 3 year period.

 

I stand by my original post. Common courtesy would dictate to me that we are talking about a coin sent on an approval basis and that the buyer was aware that it was in transit..

 

If I could not respond for whatever reason then I would have my wife,son or daughter do so in order to keep the seller informed ans to continue what has been a beneficial relationship for the last three years.

[CHABSENTIA]

I believe that ANA has a new director. I am fairly sure that I read in Coin World that there is a new diector by the name of Campbell and that he is the first one to be a Dealer and a Collector.

 

He stated that he plans to initiate new procedures and to make the ANA profitable without taking money from other sources.

 

Don't know if this has affected other positions?

[rrantique]

Back in 2002 I had won a coin on Ebay that ended on a Sunday nite. I went to work on Monday morning early, before answering correspondence with seller. Two hours later, I was in hospital with 2nd heart attack. The seller, whom I had done some previous buying, shipped the coin out. I recieved the coin 3 days before having open heart surgery on Saturday. When I came to, , my wife informed me, she had contacted seller and it was taken care of. So things happen!!

 

Hope this is not the case here. And if it's not, then there is no excuse, other than a hearse being involved.

 

If not, get a rope.

[wayneherndon]

I believe that ANA has a new director. I am fairly sure that I read in Coin World that there is a new diector by the name of Campbell and that he is the first one to be a Dealer and a Collector.

 

He stated that he plans to initiate new procedures and to make the ANA profitable without taking money from other sources.

 

Don't know if this has affected other positions?

 

The ANA's new Executive Director is Larry Shepherd. He starts to work in May or June. The Executive Director position is a full-time paid position. Dealer Bob Campbell was President (a part-time, unpaid, elected position) of the ANA from 1999 to 2001.

 

Ron is still listed as General Counsel on the ANA's website. A quick Google search did not reveal anything indicating he was no longer General Counsel but it was far from thorough.

 

WH

[MarkFeld]

I believe that ANA has a new director. I am fairly sure that I read in Coin World that there is a new diector by the name of Campbell and that he is the first one to be a Dealer and a Collector.

 

He stated that he plans to initiate new procedures and to make the ANA profitable without taking money from other sources.

 

Don't know if this has affected other positions?

 

The ANA's new Executive Director is Larry Shepherd. He starts to work in May or June. The Executive Director position is a full-time paid position. Dealer Bob Campbell was President (a part-time, unpaid, elected position) of the ANA from 1999 to 2001.

 

Ron is still listed as General Counsel on the ANA's website. A quick Google search did not reveal anything indicating he was no longer General Counsel but it was far from thorough.

 

WH

I looked where I thought I had read something about Ron no longer being general counsel and couldn't find it. I believe I was probably mistaken and if so, apologize for the misinformation.

[MikeInFL]

 

Perhaps ask him to make it more real world. Seriously, 10 or 15 days is beyond acceptable and open to outright abuse with a buyer shopping the coin around. I could understand 7 calendar days and even accept and follow that, but there is no way in hell I'd give someone 15 days. I generally know within 10 seconds if I am going to keep the coin or not.

 

Which real world are you talking about? To wit, what real-world situation outside (or inside) of the coin game dictate a decision without return privilege shorter than a few weeks?

 

Additionally, what's the problem with shopping the coin around. If the seller is happy with the price, who cares what the buyer is doing with the coin.

 

It just seems to me that shortening the decision period (and not all of us make decisions like this in 10 seconds), smacks of a high-pressure sales technique, and is something I would, personally, shy away from. Said another way, if you, as a seller, are comfortable with the coin and the price -- what's the rush?

 

Just wondering what's the motivation and justification for such a position, other than the relatively small time value of money...Mike

[MarkFeld]

 

Perhaps ask him to make it more real world. Seriously, 10 or 15 days is beyond acceptable and open to outright abuse with a buyer shopping the coin around. I could understand 7 calendar days and even accept and follow that, but there is no way in hell I'd give someone 15 days. I generally know within 10 seconds if I am going to keep the coin or not.

 

Which real world are you talking about? To wit, what real-world situation outside (or inside) of the coin game dictate a decision without return privilege shorter than a few weeks?

 

Additionally, what's the problem with shopping the coin around. If the seller is happy with the price, who cares what the buyer is doing with the coin.

 

It just seems to me that shortening the decision period (and not all of us make decisions like this in 10 seconds), smacks of a high-pressure sales technique, and is something I would, personally, shy away from. Said another way, if you, as a seller, are comfortable with the coin and the price -- what's the rush?

 

Just wondering what's the motivation and justification for such a position, other than the relatively small time value of money...Mike

Mike, in many cases AFTER I have sent a coin out on approval, I receive an inquiry or order for it from another client. In those cases, if the coin is tied up for too long, I risk losing a sale and having a frustrated and/or unhappy client. And personally, I would have a problem with a client shopping my coin around if it were at the possible expense of another client who wanted it for his collection.

 

And in the "real world", outside of coins, I don't know of many situations (on a % basis) where potential buyers have weeks in which to make a decision regarding an item that has been shipped to them.

[EZ_E]

Mike, in many cases AFTER I have sent a coin out on approval, I receive an inquiry or order for it from another client. In those cases, if the coin is tied up for too long, I risk losing a sale and having a frustrated and/or unhappy client. And personally, I would have a problem with a client shopping my coin around if it were at the possible expense of another client who wanted it for his collection.

 

And in the "real world", outside of coins, I don't know of many situations (on a % basis) where potential buyers have weeks in which to make a decision regarding an item that has been shipped to them.

 

Yeah, that's right, MikeInFl. Take that!

 

I'm surprised at your answer, Mike. You're an advanced collector with an advanced collection. Are you telling me that you must -foot around for a few days to make your mind up on a coin? That makes no sense at all unless you're just a slab man but I know better than that.

 

Once a coin is sold, payment should be made reasonably quick so that that incremental sale can be closed out and forgotten. 3 days is more than generous unless more time is requested for whatever reason.

 

And I'm the other one who wanted that coin! '53 A&R quarters with nice eye-appeal are few and far inbetween. I'm still hoping maybe I can get this coin.