My first board rant...

[wahoodude-migration]

OK, so here it goes...

I am a fairly new collector and as I have gotten more and more addicted to coin collecting, my goals have changed. At first I was content to just try to fill my US type set book with coins from EBay. But as my interest in the hobby has grown I decided that I'd like to have a complete set of coins of at least decent quality. As a result, I started collecting PCGS or NGC certified coins and decided to send my raw coins into NGC (fortunately I had gotten the clue to send them to NCS first) for evaluation. Of 20 coins, SEVENTEEN did not qualify for NGC encapsulation (I'm going to have them NCS details encapsulated and will replace them over time). I've had a few other ebay coins certified with about an 80% success rate previously, so I was surprised that the whole batch was so overwhelmingly problematic.

 

That said, I've really enjoyed the process of buying raw coins and sending them off to NGC myself (I get greater satisfaction that just buying an already encapsulated coin, which I've done too).

 

Which brings me to the point of this rant:

 

- Are there any raw coin ebay dealers others have used who sell decent coins so I can avoid the "cleaned" etc coins in the future?

 

- Is there a good resource to help me learn how to identify cleaned coins? I have a loupe and am trying to teach myself by examining and getting to know coins which are returned to me as "cleaned," but any help is appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

RSE

[*]null

[bsshog40]

I'm sure that there will be some that will post some good sellers. There are also good sellers here on the forum. My other piece of advice would be to learn how to detect cleaned coins from pictures so you don't have to find out they've been cleaned after you've purchased them.

[MikeInFL]

Which brings me to the point of this rant:

 

- Are there any raw coin ebay dealers others have used who sell decent coins so I can avoid the "cleaned" etc coins in the future?

 

- Is there a good resource to help me learn how to identify cleaned coins? I have a loupe and am trying to teach myself by examining and getting to know coins which are returned to me as "cleaned," but any help is appreciated.

 

To answer both your questions: I'm not aware of any.

 

Just about all the raw coin sellers you'll find on eBay sell cleaned coins. There may be a few who don't, but I've yet to identify them.

 

I'm not aware of a good reference on cleaned coins. I learned through experience like yours, looking at pictures at Heritage (search for "cleaned" on coins.ha.com and look at the ANACS net graded and NCS coins -- sign up for an account to look at the pics, it's free), and just looking at a lot of coins (and of course through talking to other collectors and posts on forums such as this). But I'm not aware of a really good reference book on the topic.

 

Hope this helps...Mike

 

p.s. that was an awful mild rant -- please call somebody names or something to spice it up next time!

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

Welcome to the boards. You might be interested in reading some of the What You Need To Know posts in that section. There are pictures in some of the posts showing cleaned coins. All of us have/have had had the same experiences with raw coins, even from reputable dealers who were fooled also.

[TJ'S Coins]

Which brings me to the point of this rant:

 

- Are there any raw coin ebay dealers others have used who sell decent coins so I can avoid the "cleaned" etc coins in the future?

 

- Is there a good resource to help me learn how to identify cleaned coins? I have a loupe and am trying to teach myself by examining and getting to know coins which are returned to me as "cleaned," but any help is appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

RSE

 

Welcome to the boards! You ask a good question as many of us have been where you are at in your frustration with finding coins that will not be body-bagged. Two ebay dealers that I trust are CollectorUSA and EarlyUS There are many more but these are two that I trust and can recommend from personal experience.

[WoodenJefferson]

It would be interesting to find out just how many of those 17 coins returned to you in body bags have previously been through the grading doors already and then returned to others as well?

 

This is a never ending vicious cycle...pawned again and again.

 

Makes your head spin.

 

Welcome to the boards wahoodude, heed some of the advice already given.

 

PS: When I first started buying raw coins off the bay in the early 90's there were some darn good deals around...seems of late it's more and more trash being offered. Just a sign of the times that decent deals have dried up. There was an average of 20,000 on-going US sales then as opposed to 120,000 now days.

 

[MarkFeld]

The best way to learn how to identify cleaned coins, if possible, is to find a collector or dealer who is knowledgeable and willing to spend a bit of time with you. Images, books and self-teaching can be of some help, but it is far more efficient to have someone review coins with you, face to face. You might be amazed at how much you could learn so quickly.

[Just Bob]

I have a loupe and am trying to teach myself by examining and getting to know coins which are returned to me as "cleaned," ...

 

 

This, in my opinion, is the best way to start.

 

On top of that, as others have said, look at as many coins and pictures of coins as possible, and don't be shy about asking questions here on the forum, and anywhere else you can find knowledgeable people.

[michael]

 

 

- Are there any raw coin ebay dealers others have used who sell decent coins so I can avoid the "cleaned" etc coins in the future?

 

ANSWER----hardly any at all; unfortunately YOU SHOULD NOT BE BUYING COINS VIA SLEEZEBAY LET ALONE RAW COINS!!!!

 

 

- Is there a good resource to help me learn how to identify cleaned coins?

 

ANSWER--- NO THERE IS NOT-------- OTHER THAN A GOOD EYE; A GOOD LOUPE; AND 20+++ YEARS OF EXPERIENCE, IT ALSO HELPS TO HAVE A GOOD MENTOR THAT CAN DO SHOW AND TELL WITH YOU FOR COINS!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

ANSWER---YOUR WELCOME!!

 

good luck

[cpm9ball]

The only person I know who sells on eBay and will tell you if a coin he is selling has been cleaned is James (EarlyUS). Of course, when he is too honest, eBay will usually pull his listing because it makes their slimeball power sellers look bad, and eBay loses money when they can't unload their cr@p.

 

Chris

[TomB]

Several of us who post here sell high qulity, problem-free coinage and this includes myself, but I do not list on ebay. You should find yourself a numismatic mentor, if possible, and ask to have the telltale signs of manipulation pointed out to you.

[James_OldeTowne]

OK, so here it goes...

I am a fairly new collector and as I have gotten more and more addicted to coin collecting, my goals have changed. At first I was content to just try to fill my US type set book with coins from EBay. But as my interest in the hobby has grown I decided that I'd like to have a complete set of coins of at least decent quality. As a result, I started collecting PCGS or NGC certified coins and decided to send my raw coins into NGC (fortunately I had gotten the clue to send them to NCS first) for evaluation. Of 20 coins, SEVENTEEN did not qualify for NGC encapsulation (I'm going to have them NCS details encapsulated and will replace them over time). I've had a few other ebay coins certified with about an 80% success rate previously, so I was surprised that the whole batch was so overwhelmingly problematic.

 

That said, I've really enjoyed the process of buying raw coins and sending them off to NGC myself (I get greater satisfaction that just buying an already encapsulated coin, which I've done too).

 

Which brings me to the point of this rant:

 

- Are there any raw coin ebay dealers others have used who sell decent coins so I can avoid the "cleaned" etc coins in the future?

 

- Is there a good resource to help me learn how to identify cleaned coins? I have a loupe and am trying to teach myself by examining and getting to know coins which are returned to me as "cleaned," but any help is appreciated.

 

Thanks!

Gosh, there are so many loose ends here, and so many nuances it's hard to know where to begin!

 

(1) First of all, because a coin is cleaned does not automatically mean it isn't of "at least decent quality". I was just having this conversation yesterday via PM with another board member! My personal collection contains some cleaned coins, and there is nothing wrong with that. The issue is knowing that you are buying a cleaned coin, and paying at only an appropriate level. You've now learned this lesson from your experience.

 

(2) What is the value of the coins you sent in? My suspicion is that we are speaking of coins that didn't cost you a lot, and if this is so, it would be a serious mistake to send them in for expensive certification (or NCS evaluation). What you need to do is form a relationship with a reliable dealer or a network of experienced coin collectors who can steer you away from certifying coins that are just not worthy of certification.

 

(3) You started out with a "type set" of some twenty coins or so, and now have decided to form a "complete set".... a complete set of what? It makes a huge difference if you are speaking of bust dollars ... or Sacagawea dollars! I would expect 17/20 bust dollars to be cleaned! But if you are getting that kind of error rate on modern coins, then something is seriously amiss.

 

(4) Remember that there are thousands and thousands and thousands of cleaned coins in NGC and PCGS slabs. Again, some cleaned coins ARE "quality coins", but there is a subjective factor in determining at what point a coin is "too cleaned" to be encapsulated.

 

(5) If you are a collector and not quite experienced, and decide you want your collection to be in slabs, your best bet is to purchase certified coins to begin with. I strongly urge you not to try to get "bargains" from eBay, or where ever, and turn them into slabbed coins. At your admitted level of inexperience, you are going to get frustrated and end up giving up on the hobby. I know you have more "fun" gambling and trying for grades yourself, but until you're quite well armed with knowledge, the "other guys" (the eBay sellers) have a big advantage over you.

 

Those are my initial thoughts up front. Hope I don't offend you.

[supertooth]

Hello Wahoodude--- In most instances, the key to many of the cleaned coins are "hairlines". Take your loupe and tilt, at various angles, the coin until you can see the lines. They will look like small scratches. These hairlines are better seen in the open areas of the coins called the 'fields'. Later you can learn about die striations---which are 'raised' lines---they are OK. But, for now, be aware that many of the cleaned coins do indeed have these hairlines---and hairlines are mostly bad news.

 

Also, a cleaned coin usually will be lighter in color than a coin which hasn't been cleaned or dipped. Take a silver coin for example. If it is a real light silvery grey circulated coin---especially if it is an older coin----say before about 1940----be automatically suspicious that it has been tampered with in some way.

 

As has been pointed out, read a lot of the threads in the WYNTK posts. Handle a lot of coins----and look and learn from many pictures. It does take a whole lot of time to get where you want to go----and some dedication too. Try to keep your wallet SHUT---until you are a little better. It really does help to read a lot before you buy----and to handle a lot of certified coins too. We all go through a learning process and climb that ladder of knowledge one step at a time. Good luck---and do try and find that mentor too if you can. Bob [supertooth]

[BillJones]

First of all it's hard buy really scarce coins raw these days. Many of the better examples have been slabbed, and a great many of the raw coins are raw for the reasons that you got body bags. They can't be graded except by these "third world" grading services that in business quite simply to fool the public.

 

Second, a good number of dealers use eBay as a dumping ground for the stuff they have not been able to sell elsewhere. This applies to both raw and slabbed coins. Yes, there are some legitimate, good coins offered on eBay, but most of those offerings are protected at price levels that prevent the sale of those coins at very low prices.

 

I buy virtually all of my coins at major shows. I look at the material before I buy it and make the deals right there. I've been a type collector since the mid 1960s and I've been really serious about it (I had graduated from college and had enough money to buy some good stuff) since the early 1970s. Despite that fact that I've paid what some people would call "retail" for the coins I have, I've done very well financially over the years. The reason is that I picked coins that were nice to absolutely wonderful for their grades. Quality is more important than price.

 

And finally don't get the idea that it's a good deal just because someone else is bidding. Remember one other poorly informed bidder (or a shill blidder) can launch you on the road to financial hell. Knowing how to grade and knowing what coins are worth is the key, not the venue of the sale.

 

BTW you can check out my type sets on the NGC registry. All of my coins are pictures and I'll brag about it ... I won the award for best presented set this year.

 

Link to 1793 to date type set

 

Link to Gold type set

[Conder101]

It would be interesting to find out just how many of those 17 coins returned to you in body bags have previously been through the grading doors already and then returned to others as well?

I think it would be interesting to know how many have been through the doors of the services and been returned at least once in a slab. We all know of coins that have been slabbed and when sent back in for regrading or crossover have been BB'd.

[Coin]

Hello Wahoodude , welcome to the posting side of the board !

 

I'm in the central part of SC (when I'm home) , and can refer you to some decent coin clubs I've heard of in the area , but where are you most near?

There are clubs in Charleston , Greenville , Augusta(GA) , Camden , etc ...you can also go the the

'scnumismaticassociation' (add .com) website for in-state links etc.

 

I am not a member of any of the clubs as I am rarely ever home long enough to participate (job) , but have been to a few of the local shows . You can meet others with the same interests who are willing to discuss your coins 'in-hand' with you at some of those events also....just bring them with you.

 

Don't get frustrated too early , just sit back and remember to take your time , nobody is holding a stopwatch to see how fast you can get the number one set ...these sets are more enjoyable when time is involved...you tend to learn more about them as you go rather than all at once out of a book , although reading helps to cut the learning curve down .

Good luck , neighbor !

-John

 

PS : if you are cherry-picking 'theBay' , saavy sellers have already inundated the so-called 'estate sales' and the 'I inherited these from my relatives' pitches...you might get lucky once in a while with someone that is selling off all kinds of stuff with a few coins thrown in , but who is to say they bought the coins right either , you know? I've found a few jewels at local estate sales , but even those are starting to fill up with speculators over-bidding on everything , so watch out .

 

OOps , had to edit to add , I am a member of the SCNumismaticAssociation.

[Dcoin]

Couple of posters mention it, but I'll highlight it.

 

Try to get to a show as much as possible. Even if it's just to look. Not only will you save a bunch on shipping costs, but you will also get a feel for identifying what problem coins look like.

 

[wahoodude-migration]

Thanks for all the input. I've read it all and taken some notes.

 

To answer a few questions...all of the coins I purchased were low $ value coins (even if not "cleaned"), so we're not talking a lof of dough (my suspicous nature leads me to assume that anything sold on ebay is likely not a good deal).

 

Thanks again!