What would you do?

[rons]

I won an auction last month 2/11 to be exact. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360020690798&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

I received the Iowa commem and sent it in for grading with my free submission. Today, I received my grades and this coin came back as improperly cleaned. I have sent the seller the following message: "I realize that the return period has expired but I received my grading results from NGC today(after sitting there since 2/25 ) and the Iowa coin was rejected as being improperly cleaned. Please advise. Thanks Ron"

Given the facts as they stand and depending upon the reply is a negative warranted or does buyer beware prevail in this case?

Please discuss among yourselves and present your opinions and your rationale for them

 

I will update when a response is received

 

[okbustchaser]

Did the seller say that he would guarantee that it would slab? If not, tough nougies. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

No, a negative is not warranted.

[michael]

"""""""Please look at the scan and grade the coin for yourself as this is the actual coin you will receive. I do not attach an MS grade to the coin as grading is very subjective and I am by no means an expert. One person may grade a coin as an MS60 while another one grade it as an MS63 so I will leave that up to you to grade the coin based on the scan.""""""---from peddlers auction of this coin you bought

 

 

sorry to say< but the way this peddler and this particular auction was described the original peddler is a clever liar and is clearly hiding something and talking out of both sides of his mouth about this partciular coin--- but with his terms and selling it raw and you taking it out of the 2x2 holder you voided your return priviledge and you own the coin with no recourse

 

next time you buy anything ONLY BUY IN HAND SIGHT SEEN and if you want the coin in a holder then buy the coin in a holder and also if you cant grade or tell if the coin has been cleaned then you need to let someone you trust who has knowledge and expertise in coins look at an item for you

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Quote from sellers auction: "I will always go the extra mile for all of my customers."

 

Well, let's just see if this occurs?

 

Stay rational, stay sane...the least that can happen is a learning (although somewhat costly) experience.

[CHABSENTIA]

You are probably out of luck. I bought two coins from TRB coins on Ebay. I had no problem with him but on my last submission I submitted the two coins. Both were for the Hot 50. One came back without the hot 50 designation and the other came back with the Hot 50 designation but improperly cleaned. I wrote the guy and he refused to take the improperly cleaned coin back and he told me that he would refund my fees on the other coin if I returned it. Apparently he just means the grading fees but the coin is worth more than the grading fees.

 

He is primarily a Vam dealer. On some coins he guarantees the Vam but for the most part he says "that if coins are taken out of the packaging that he will not accept a return. On a few of them he will guarantee the Vam .Otherwise there only a few days return window.

 

 

I asked him before about coins that had been cleaned and he claimss [font:Arial Black] [/font] s that he has been grading coins for 30 years and two others that work for him also have been grading coins for 20 years and he doesn't sell "cleaned" coins.

 

I have bought several coins from him in the past and never received a cleaned coin. I am not going to get excited about it or rant and rave. The fact that he has told me this in the past and now outright refuses to refund the "cleaned" coin just means that I will no longer do business with him.

 

I have done business with a few other dealers who have told me that they will give a refund if I send in the coins for grading and this happens.One is Yeager on Ebay. I think he is in Georgia.

 

Unless they specifically say in their terms that they will accept returns on "cleaned" coins then you are out of luck no matter what hey say as they can just fall back on their three or seven day return window and the fact that they state that " if it has been removed from the 2 1/2 by 2 1/2 that it was sent in etc" then you are out of luck.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

No negative is warranted under the circumstances as described. In fact, I don't think you had any good reason to even contact the seller after you got your grading results. If the coin had come back MS68, would you have written to him and made arrangements to send him a lot of extra money?

[michael]

Quote from sellers auction: "I will always go the extra mile for all of my customers."

 

 

talk is cheap

 

 

[michael]

Quote from sellers auction: "I will always go the extra mile for all of my customers."

 

 

 

talk is cheap and even moreso from a sleezebay peddler liar powerscrewer

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Under the circumstances of how this transaction took place, he is not obligated to issue a refund, in my opinion, and should not be expected to.

 

I am sorry to make this statement, but if you wanted a certified Iowa, that is what you ought to purchase.

 

Good luck, regardless of what course of action you embark on!

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Actually, I went back and re-read the auction description. The seller does note:

 

The coin is in raw uncertified condition and is a very nice original coin.

 

In this case, he is claiming the coin meets criteria for being considered "original", but this was not a true statement.

 

I am rethinking my stance, and now feel you should be entitled to a full refund. The images do not indicate that the coin is cleaned, and his description certainly doesn't either.

[jgrinz]

 

I will have to agree with James on this one ... I would venture to guess 90% of the sellers pawn thier OLD WAREZ on Ebay ( those coins that have not slabbed for them but have the potential of filling a customers dansco OR in the rare case a resubmittal by the buyer and getting slabbed by a different TPG ) I take this for granted when buying ANYTHING raw on Ebay.

 

Refund - NO

Negative - NO

Inform him of you unhappiness with purchase -YES - BUit not in the context that you did.

 

[MarkFeld]

Actually, I went back and re-read the auction description. The seller does note:

 

The coin is in raw uncertified condition and is a very nice original coin.

 

In this case, he is claiming the coin meets criteria for being considered "original", but this was not a true statement.

 

I am rethinking my stance, and now feel you should be entitled to a full refund. The images do not indicate that the coin is cleaned, and his description certainly doesn't either.

Other than in cases of counterfeit coins or where a seller has guaranteed that a coin will grade such and such, I think it is wrong to let opinions of grading companies/third parties dictate the outcome of transactions.

[CHABSENTIA]

To me the problem is the "cleaned" coin. If a Dealer tells me in my case that no only has he been grading coins for 30 years but two other people looking at the coin each have 20 years experience then I have to wonder how three people with that much experience can miss a "cleaned" coin. Then there is the fact that he will take the other coin back but not the "cleaned" one.

 

Either three people grading the coin missed it or they saw it and the Seller decided to unload a "cleaned" coin on me or it is just B.S. about the grading experience even though he seems knowlegeable.

 

Either way it is a reason for me not to do business with him anymore.

 

Ohterwise I could care less about the grading of the coin. What I have is a coin that I can't get slabbed because it is a "cleaned" coin and hence has MS 0 grade to me.

[gmarguli]

The coin is in raw uncertified condition and is a very nice original coin.

 

In this case, he is claiming the coin meets criteria for being considered "original", but this was not a true statement.

 

What exactly does original mean?

[James_OldeTowne]

What exactly does original mean?

I think we can all agree that: we can't all agree on what "original" means.

 

But for a 20th century silver commemorative that virtually always appears in high grade (the Iowa), I think it is reasonable to expect that "original" means it has not been cleaned, or if it has been, then not to an extent that the value of the coin is seriously impacted.

 

Mark, I hear what you are saying, but NGC market grades coins, and in their opinion, the cleaning is extensive enough to significantly impact the market value of the coin.

 

Personally, I would not return the coin after waiting so long, but that is just me. If I were the seller and described an Iowa as "original", I would probably give the new owner as much as a year to return it, if NGC deemed the coin "not original".

[MikeInFL]

I won an auction last month 2/11 to be exact. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360020690798&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

I received the Iowa commem and sent it in for grading with my free submission. Today, I received my grades and this coin came back as improperly cleaned. I have sent the seller the following message: "I realize that the return period has expired but I received my grading results from NGC today(after sitting there since 2/25 ) and the Iowa coin was rejected as being improperly cleaned. Please advise. Thanks Ron"

Given the facts as they stand and depending upon the reply is a negative warranted or does buyer beware prevail in this case?

Please discuss among yourselves and present your opinions and your rationale for them

 

I will update when a response is received

 

In my opinion, the seller is under no obligation to accept your request (as your original sale wasn't contingent on NGC slabbing the coin and it is well beyond the return period you agreed to by placing a bid), however in this case it can't hurt to ask....Mike

[MikeInFL]

next time you buy anything ONLY BUY IN HAND SIGHT SEEN and if you want the coin in a holder then buy the coin in a holder and also if you cant grade or tell if the coin has been cleaned then you need to let someone you trust who has knowledge and expertise in coins look at an item for you

 

Quoted for truth. Well said, Michael.

[MarkFeld]

The coin is in raw uncertified condition and is a very nice original coin.

 

In this case, he is claiming the coin meets criteria for being considered "original", but this was not a true statement.

 

What exactly does original mean?

Greg, when I saw that you had posted to this thread I was expecting a far less docile reply

[MarkFeld]

Mark, I hear what you are saying, but NGC market grades coins, and in their opinion, the cleaning is extensive enough to significantly impact the market value of the coin

James, but what about all of the times a coin receives a body-bag but gets slabbed upon a re-submission? Or coins which initially get slabbed but are later cracked out and receive body-bags? Those are some of the problems with letting a third party opinion rule a transaction.

[James_OldeTowne]

James, but what about all of the times a coin receives a body-bag but gets slabbed upon a re-submission? Or coins which initially get slabbed but are later cracked out and receive body-bags? Those are some of the problems with letting a third party opinion rule a transaction.

The difference is that we are talking about a $120 coin. I surely wouldn't expect someone to be nuts enough to resubmit such a coin three times trying to get it holdered! In any case, I would not refund the buyers slabbing fees, because if he was fool enough to resubmit a $120 coin three times for certification, then he's just out of luck (as well as out of common sense).

 

As a seller, my plan would be to nullify the transaction with eBay to recoup the eBay fees, then just relist the coin, with the caveat of "cleaned" included. I would also use this as a nearly-free lesson in grading coins, and try to learn better how to recognize a cleaning.

 

In essence, what this would all wash out to be for the seller is one nearly-free certification attempt, and that has value. If the coin is returned, I think the seller actually comes out ahead, as he didn't lose money on certification fees, yet gained the benefit of a small lesson out of all of it.

 

Let's suppose it was a $12,000 coin. In that case, the buyer might very well justify three submission attempts on the grounds of big upside potential. If it did somehow get certified, then he's in good shape - a $12,000 coin in a holder - awesome! If it never gets in a slab, then I might rethink the whole return thing. It would not be fair to expect the seller to keep $12,000 in a bank account in case of a future return. In this case, the bidder would have screwed up in the first case for bidding on a big-ticket coin without certification. Maybe an 80% buyback could be attempted (what amounts to a restocking fee).

 

Sorry to be long-winded. Hope I made a little sense here.

 

Edited to add: Just as an aside, and for the record, I would not bother to get a $120 coin certified. In this regard, I do not agree with Rons' actions (certification).

[TomB]

Regardless of what one may think of the seller on other levels, I do not believe the seller is required to give any refund in this instance. I also notice that the seller uses the term "original" in the auction description, but there is no numismatically accepted definition to the term, to my knowledge, and I do not believe this can be used as a technicality to consider the coin not as described.

[MarkFeld]

I surely wouldn't expect someone to be nuts enough to resubmit such a coin three times trying to get it holdered!

What about twice, then? What about all of the even lower value coins that people pay to have slabbed in the first place?

[rons]

I like it I like it Keep this discussion rolling. There are some great points being made for either side and I think it is a great learning experience. These are the kinds of questions and responses that help me to grow and become a smarter collector. I fully intend to study this coin in detail to see what I overlooked before the submission. It will go into my Dansco and look great there but I do look forward to a response from the seller. Just curious to see if he backs up his ad. A negative to him with 64000 + feedbacks would be like spitting in the ocean and expecting sea level to rise. Anyway, please keep the conversation going

 

His quote The few negatives that we have received are due to deadbeat bidders or a lack of communication as we always make sure that you are happy with your purchase.

[bochiman]

Unless seller states a guarantee to slab (by XXX company), then I don't think that should dictate (unless a counterfeit/forgery).

 

If you had coin, in-hand, could you not tell it was cleaned? If you didn't look, then shame on you. If you did look, and YOU couldn't tell, then is it possible the seller couldn't tell?

 

Either way, I would say that, in my own shoes, I have had similar happen, once, when I was just learning morgans, and everyone else thought the coin was cleaned. Sent to ANACS (4-5 years ago) and it came back graded, not cleaned. The marks that people, here, thought were cleaning, were not.

I had sent the seller a question about the coin and asking if it had been cleaned. I did not ask about a refund or return though as it was a learning experience and I am a big boy.

 

I did get a learning experience....I learned you can't always grade (or tell cleaning) from a photo

[James_OldeTowne]

I surely wouldn't expect someone to be nuts enough to resubmit such a coin three times trying to get it holdered!

What about twice, then?

Or, what if it bags at NGC but PCGS holders it ?

 

 

What about all of the even lower value coins that people pay to have slabbed in the first place?

Mark, I am a strong believer in the idea that there is a threshold range of value below which coins should not be certified for questions of "grade". Authenticity and attribution, yes. But a $120 coin does not belong in a $25 holder over a question of "value". (Of course, this is mostly a whole separate argument .... I think!)

[CHABSENTIA]

I agree with most of everything said including the situation where you don't ask for a refund but list the facts in an E mail and then see how the Seller responds to it.

 

In my last case the Seller, TRB coins ,exclusively sells VAMS on E BAY and claims that between himself and two others that check the coin that there is 70 years between them. This is one of his selling points. The guy also gives Grades which I believe is not supposed to be allowed on Ebay as far as raw coins are concerned but he does this on each and every coin.

 

 

I really don't care if he is off a grade or two and NGC down grades him by one or two points.Where I have a problem is that the guy deals exclusively in Vams. I even called NGC and they say they pulled the one in that did not get a hot 50 vam and rechecked it..

 

Now I have to wonder how three people with 70 years experience between them that specilaize in VAMS get it wrong and miss the fact that the other coin has been cleaned. This guy also claims he uses a 1000 10x Microscope.. Either this is B.S. or they deliberately palmed off these coins .Either one is a reason not to so business with them again.

[braddick]

rons, Just a couple of quick questions.

1- Did you not notice the coin was cleaned before submitting it? If not, is is possible, like you must have, the seller also missed the 'cleaning'?

 

2- If the coin had been returned MS68* would you have split the difference between the cost of the coin vs the (now) value with the seller?

[rons]

rons, Just a couple of quick questions.

1- Did you not notice the coin was cleaned before submitting it? If not, is is possible, like you must have, the seller also missed the 'cleaning'?

 

I did check the coin closely but admit to not being skilled in this area. I used a 5X loupe and swirled it under different lighting and the cartwheel looked great. I looked at it several different occasions to be certain. I will study it closely when it returns to see what I missed.

 

 

2- If the coin had been returned MS68* would you have split the difference between the cost of the coin vs the (now) value with the seller?

 

 

Great question....... Would I split the difference? First let me say that I am quite certain that they wouldn't let a coin of that magnificence loose so cheap but having said that my honest answer would be no, I would not split the difference. I would have been pleased with a 65 on the coin and a 68* would be like finding a diamond in the front yard so I don't believe that is a valid comparison.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

rons, Just a couple of quick questions.

1- Did you not notice the coin was cleaned before submitting it? If not, is is possible, like you must have, the seller also missed the 'cleaning'?

 

I did check the coin closely but admit to not being skilled in this area. I used a 5X loupe and swirled it under different lighting and the cartwheel looked great. I looked at it several different occasions to be certain. I will study it closely when it returns to see what I missed.

 

 

2- If the coin had been returned MS68* would you have split the difference between the cost of the coin vs the (now) value with the seller?

 

 

Great question....... Would I split the difference? First let me say that I am quite certain that they wouldn't let a coin of that magnificence loose so cheap but having said that my honest answer would be no, I would not split the difference. I would have been pleased with a 65 on the coin and a 68* would be like finding a diamond in the front yard so I don't believe that is a valid comparison.

 

Pick another grade, then. The point is that it's unfair to expect a seller to bail you out if the grading results are unfavorable, but not benefit if the results are favorable. It should be a two way street or none at all, not a one way street.

[braddick]

Mark: Bingo.

 

I'm still wondering what NGC saw, as far as a 'cleaning' that you and the seller didn't see.