This is why coin dealers are looked at just higher than vermin...

[wayneherndon]

The biggest problem I have and I have said it before is when I pay for Insurance and the Seller does not purchase it.

 

My comments below are not directed to CHABSENTIA personally but to all buyers who have had the above thought go through their mind. I've read and heard comments like this numerous times and always try to correct this very common misperception.

 

 

If you purchased insurance your package was insured. If not by the PO or a third party, then in effect it was self-insured by the shipper. Either way, you have no complaint.

 

The USPS's insurance rates are outrageous. There are several private companies that offer alternatives for a fraction of the cost. Many shippers either self insure or use these third party options.

 

We have a shipping policy through Lloyds, for example. Many others use UPIC. I recoup the cost of my policy through an add-on to the shipping charge. This add-on is far less than what USPS insurance would cost. The annual premium for the policy is about what I would spend on USPS insurance in a week. So my third party cost is about 2% of the cost of USPS insurance a savings which is passed on to my customers. I also don't have to fill out any forms or paperwork under my policy saving probably 1/4 of an employee during the course of the year. This also gets passed along in lower costs. Lloyds also quickly pays claims with minimal hassle and paperwork which is also a benefit to me and my customer unlike the PO's process that often ends in a denial of coverage. Based on my so far all positive experience with my insurer, I now immediately refund my customers upon notice of a loss and then deal directly with Lloyds to get my refund.

 

My ebay customers should be thanking me profusely for avoiding the USPS insurance program. When their package arrives uninsured they should smile and glow with warmth from having just dealt with an eBay seller who was thoughtful enough to avoid the USPS insurance program. However, the typically ungrateful ebay customers see a shipping charge slightly higher than the meter strip and complain that they were overcharged for shipping.

 

Additionally, using third party or self-insurance actually lowers the risk of loss. That "Insured" stamp or sticker effectively tells would-be package thieves that this particular package includes valuables.

 

WH

[MarkFeld]

Wayne, thanks for your excellent and informative post. I hope a lot of people see it. (thumbs u

[James_OldeTowne]

Wayne, thanks for your excellent and informative post. I hope a lot of people see it. (thumbs u

I agree. I also explain all this on the eBay document that accompanies all my eBay shipments. USPS insurance is ridiculously expensive, although I use it on certified packages.

[MikeInFL]

Jeff, I think you started the whole thing when you used the word "exorbitant" in describing the seller's price. Had you not used that word, I would agree with your perspective. Given you did, Rareco's response, while not the way I would have handled the situation, is undertandable. That said, his not articulating the insurance charge until after the transaction was completed was incorrect and you are right to have pointed it out and taken issue with it, but I think you would have been better served by not using any pejoratives when bringing it up. Sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it, and I suspect this is one of those times. Respectfully submitted...Mike

[mazorj-migration]

So, if I read all these responses correctly, coin dealers are holes, and I should just deal with it, but don't leave the hobby, because you love it so much...

 

Well, I don't love it that much.

 

If that's the worst thing that ever happens to you buying coins on e-Bay, count yourself among the blessedly lucky.

 

Case in Point: There is one dealer who lists only coins slabbed by what I can only call a bottom-feeder, fraudulent grading service. I bought 3 1948 PDS slabbed dimes from him. The pics showed 3 nicely shiny coins in slabs. The slabs were labeled with an MS-70 grade even though e-Bay now only alllows sellers to claim a grading from the top four services, which this was not. The seller further skirted the rules by making qualified claims to the effect that "This looks like it would grade at MS-70 - but I'm not a collector so judge for yourself from the pictures".

 

The dimes turned out to be damaged by dipping in a very erosive solution. The entire surfaces were uniformly grainy with absolutely no color variations anywhere. They also had bag marks - but they weere graded MS-70! A reputable service would have rejected them as damaged, but I think this service must give an MS-70 to anything shiny that isn't holed or bent.

 

At those prices I wan't expecting investment quality coins. I knew they couldn't grade as MS-70 and would probably be somwhat lower. For my modest needs (a birth year set) anything at MS-60 or better would have been acceptable. And for several reasons, I decided to keep them even in their damaged condition. But still...

 

What's worse, out of the 17 coins that I needed for this project (and bought on e-Bay), at least 7 were damaged by cleaning (whizzing and/or dipping). Several sellers honored their "no questions" return policy, but still...

 

I've sent three e-mails to the seller of the slabbed dimes pointing out the grading fraud being perpetrated by this service (which is all that he sells). He has yet to respond, so I can only assume that he knows exactly what he is doing. He continues to list dozens of these coins with the same MS-70 slab pics and implied claims. Which means that he is an accessory to the fraud and has no intention of reforming his sales practices. And the e-Bay seller ratings are meaningless unless they show a high rate of dissatisifed buyer comments. This seller has a very high rating even though he ought to be banned from e-Bay.

 

Bottom Line: There are many reputable sellers on e-Bay, but there are many who prey on the ignorance of buyers. There are plenty of brick-and-mortar coin shops and dealers that do this too, either out of ignorance or intent, but at least with them you can confront the dealer face to face. Buyer beware and learn how to spot the signs of potentially misleading or fraudulent listings. Once you have mastered this skill, you should be able to avoid sellers who systematically try to rip off their buyers, and seek out those who deal honestly in their listinngs.

 

 

[TomB]

In your case, mazorj, the seller might own the "grading service" in question.

[bsshog40]

Wayne, I appreciate that information of yours. I've been lucky never to have to try to recoup money due to a lost coin and deal with what insurance was used by a seller. Hopefully I won't have to.

[CHABSENTIA]

I had the one experience. I wrote the Seller and aksed him why it dod not show any Insurance on the package. I wrote the guy and asked home what would have happened if the package had been lost through the Post office?

 

His response was "Wt do you care?" "You got your coin".

 

What you say may or may not be rue with all Sellers, There are soem that admit that they make Money on the Postage.I have no problem with that.I read the "terms" of the Sellers. If they say they Charge $7.50 and the Package arrives with $1.47 postage on it I have no problem as I agreed to the $7.50 when I bid on the item.

 

I have no problem with paying Insurance of $1.65 or a total of $9.15 in this case if the Package arrives with only $1.47 postage. If I purchase the Insurance then I think I have a right to know what the Seller is gong to do if the item is lost in the USPS.There are other Stories on here where others have had bad luck gettting their Money through Pay pal and some only half..

 

I have purchased a lot of coins on EBay and have never read any where a Seller stated in their 'terms" that they were self insured etc. I have read one where a Seller has stated that if you purchase In surance and the package is lost that he will send you the insurance receipt and aid you in applying for it. This is one out of over a hundred.

 

 

There is no way that all the Sellers on EBAY have self insurance if they don't purchase it even though they say that they "will not be responsible for any loss if you do not purchase it.

 

If they don't purchase it even though the Buyer has paid for it then I think the Seller ought to put it in his terms. Some will even say "no Insurance offered" and then it is up to the individual if he/she want to bid. I have had others who did not say they didn't offer it until the bidding was finished.The fact is that oy don't always know.

 

 

 

[CHABSENTIA]

Again. That is fine,however, if I ask the Seller why Insrurance didn't show up on he package I think I deserve a better answer then "What do you care?"" You got your coin". I think that I have the right to know what the Seller is going to do if the coin is lost and there is no evidence of Insurance before the fact then afterwards if the package is lost.

 

If they are self insured etc then I think the Buyer has a right to know if they say "I will not be responsible if the Buyer doesn't pay for Insurance"I doubt very seriously in my case that it was the only time he didn't buy Insurance.

 

What is the problem with including it in the Sellers "Terms" what they will do in case of Loss if you purchased the Insurance?I buy it for peace of mind. If they don't want to use the USPS Insurance then it is their call..

[wayneherndon]

If the seller doesn't purchase insurance from the PO or some other third party, then the seller is self-insuring. If they are buying insurance from the PO or a third party, they are "re-insuring" to spread their risk. They could be only re-insuring a portion of the potential loss. For example, even if the coin is valued at a $1000, they could reinsure $400 at the PO to get the advantage of the PO signature process and a PO insurance investigation if the package is lost. The remain $600 they'll pay in the event of a loss. Or, they may insure the full $1000 out to a third-party but have a deductible (say $100) that they pay in the event of a loss.

 

Large sellers have formal programs. Small sellers don't but the process is the same. They may choose to keep the money and not re-insure. If so, they just self insured. Or, they may partially insure thinking that reduces the risk to a tolerable level. If so, they just re-insured a portion of their risk and self-insured for the balance. This is the case even if the terms "re-insure" and "self-insure" never entered their minds.

 

Sellers don't put in their auctions that they self-insure or use third-party insurance because that leads to buyers buying the item with the intent to claim non-reciept.

 

Although many sellers have no problem giving out the information, buyers do not have a right to know who the seller's insurance vendor is (or if there is one). With insurance, things that are insured, get reinsured all the time (and often multiple times). Similarly, consumers likely have no idea of who actually is ultimately backing any of their other insurance (home, auto, umbrella, etc.). Typically, the party who's name is on the policy only has a portion of the total liability, if any. Yet, that is the party the buyer is relying on for payment in the event of a claim.

 

The ebay seller is offering the buyer insurance for a certain fee. Frankly, that insurance is only as good as the seller irrespective of who is actually insuring the loss because the buyer's relationship for this insurance is only with the seller. The buyer is dependent on the seller to live up to his insurance offer. Even if he reinsures, the seller could collect the proceeds and keep them rather than remit them to the buyer. Whether or not the seller has chosen to reinsure does not increase or decrease the likelihood that the buyer will collect on the insurance in the event of a loss. The buyer is totally at the mercy of the seller no matter what the seller does with the buyer's insurance premium. If the buyer does not trust the seller to provide the insurance coverage, the buyer should not be buying insurance from the seller. Seeing the additional money on the meter strip does not improve the situation. That just means that the seller has reinsured for his liability, not that the buyer will be paid in the event of a loss.

 

Buyers should weigh paying the seller his quoted insurance fee to have the seller insure the loss versus the buyer keeping the insurance fee and and assuming the loss on the package himself (self-insuring). If the seller chooses to reinsure to reduce his exposure, that's his business. The buyer need only be concerned with the party that is selling the insurance. In this case it is the eBay seller.

 

If a buyer purchased insurance and the package is lost the seller will have to reimburse the buyer. Whether the seller reinsured his liability through the PO, a third party, or self-insured is the seller's concern. The buyer's relationship is only with the seller.

 

One exception where the buyer might need be concerned is if the seller did in fact reinsure through the USPS. Many small time ebay sellers use the USPS insurance program to simply wipe their hands clean of risk of loss. They basically will pass back to the buyer whatever the get from the USPS. In that case, it is likely that the seller will make the buyer wait 1-6 months until the USPS pay him before paying the buyer. Also, if the USPS denies the claim or partial pays the claim (the USPS typically will only reimburse the seller for his cost of the item which is usually less than what the buyer paid for it) the seller may deny or partial pay the claim to the buyer. If he didn't purchase PO insurance, on the other hand, the buyer will more than likely get his money right away in full. USPS insurance is the weakest form of shipping insurance available on the market. Risk averse buyers should avoid entirely sellers who reinsure through the USPS. Stick with sellers who provide real insurance coverage through self-insurance or non-USPS re-insurance not those who limit the insurance to the weak and expensive coverage provided by the USPS.

 

eBay listings that offer insurance offer insurance only through the seller. There are no other choices. None of them offer insurance through the USPS. Yes, some sellers reinsure with the USPS but the buyer's insurance is through the seller.

 

If the buyer is not happy with insurance thorugh the seller, the buyer can arrange for insurance on his own. If the buyer (ill-advised) wants USPS insurance, the buyer will need to work with the seller to procure that insurance on the buyer's behalf (since it has to be purchased at the time of shipment). Such buyers should advise the seller up front that USPS insurance is desired and offer the seller a fee for processing the USPS paperwork for them. Also, the buyer should acknowledge up front that any future relationship will be directly between the buyer and the USPS in the event the package is lost and that the seller is absolved from liability in the event the package is lost and the USPS denies, partial pays or slow pays the claim.

 

Buyers that are not happy with either procuring insurance from the seller directly or retaining the seller to act on their behalf to procur USPS insurance, still have the option of obtaining third-party insurance on their own behalf or self-insuring. For such buyers, UPIC, as one example, offers insurance for incoming packages. Individuals can insure through UPIC for incoming packages at a fraction of the USPS rates (and less than the rates charged by many eBay sellers to add the insurance option). The UPIC program is advantageous for buyers and sellers who receive or ship only an occasional package with premiums collected on a per-package basis similar to the USPS program. For volume buyers or sellers, a blanket shipping policy is more appropriate. Our Lloyds policy, for example, also provides inbound insurance coverage which works when we buy items, have customers ship us coins on consignment, etc.

 

WH

[James_OldeTowne]

Wayne, your post is simply outstanding, and I wish it was required reading for every single bidder on eBay. Fantastic job.

 

(thumbs u

[CHABSENTIA]

By " Llloyds" I hve to wonder whether you are talking about Lloyds of London. If this is the case then I find it very difficult to compare the policies and operations of Lloyds of London to the average E Bay seller.

 

I ran across the terms of an E Bay dealer today that stated that he did not accept returns at all. If you bid on it and won it then it is yours. There were people bidding on it so either they didn't care or they didn't read the terms. I passed.

 

There are many people who are giving grades on raw coins outright with no qualifications and many who say I can't give a grade because of the New EBay policy and some who try to get around it by saying such things as " I can't but if I could then I would give it a grade of..... etc".

 

I read the feedback on one Seller last night as a raw Morgan by the Seller interested me. The Seller had something like 99.1 % positive feedback. Many were talking about the quick delivery. i noticed a few that said " a long wait but it was worth it".I checked all the items as far back as three months which is as far as it goes for "details".

 

On non coin items which this seller sold there was only a few days for delivery. On each and every coin the delivery time was anyhwhere from 4 weeks to 6 weeks.There were none less than 4 weeks. I passed. I believe that if an item has not been delivered in 10 days or is deleivered damaged that one can file a complaint. I am not clear whehter this is 10 days after you paid for it or 10 days after the Seller has mailed it.If it is the latter than one would have to wait 5 1/2 weeks if the Seller doesn't have to mail it for 4 -6 weeks.

 

 

I don't see why I have to wade through hundreds of feedbacks to check the accuracy of them and I can't see why the Sellers don't have to adhere to some sort of Uniform Policy?

 

Given that the Seller in the above example doesn't ship for 4-6 weeks then how do I know whether or not my Package has shipped let alone lost in that period of time?I don't care whether the Insurance is paid through USPS or because they are self insured or not etc. Are you going to tell me that if I called Lloyds that I would be told " What do you care?"...................................

 

Again. If I bid on an object then I agree to pay the Postage that is listed by the Seller.If the Seller offers optional Insurance then I pay whatever is his/her rate for it.If the Seller wants to charge me $7.00 + $1.65 or $8.65 for it and spends $1.47 for postage then good for him or her if they are self insured and thereby reduce their costs. Why should I profusely thank them in this case. If they are charging me $8.65 then they are not passing any of this savings along to the Buyer if the package only has $1.46 on it unless you want me to believe that it cost $7.19 to self insure it.In this case I guarantee that $7.19 is not cheaper than the USPS.

 

I also think that the Buyer should be made aware of whether the Seller insures through the USPS or is self insured. If self insured then the Buyer has a right to know befrehand what the Seller will do if the item is lost if they have paid for the optional insurance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CHABSENTIA]

I have mentioned similar things in other posts especially concerning feedback.There are excellent Sellers on E Bay. The problem is that many if not all these excellent Sellers defend the not so good Sellers through General observations and tend to ignore the Specifics.I have just given a case where I read all the glorious positive feedback and the Seller took 4-6 weeks to ship every one of his coins

 

I just had another case where TRB Coins on EBAY who sells only VAM Morgans and claims that he and two others that grade the coins have 70 years experience between them. He not only gives exact grades for his raw coins which is against the E Bay policy of only the top four certified TPGs but recenlt sent me two coins. One did not have the top 50 designation that he claims 70 years experience nailed but their 70 years experience also missed a coin that was body bagged because of improper cleaning.

[wayneherndon]

Yes, the "Lloyds" for my policy is Lloyds of London. My customers have no business calling Lloyds about my policy and Lloyds will hopefully tell them to buzz off. Lloyds' contract is with me. The customer's contract is with me. The customer deals with me on lost packages and I deal with Lloyds. The customer talking to Lloyds is not part of the equation. That's the point I've been trying to make. The buyer's only point of contact or reference for the eBay insurance contract is with the seller. It doesn't matter with whom or even whether the seller has reinsured his risk. The buyer is at the mercy of the seller whether USPS insurance is used or not. (And, by the way, I only re-insure part of my shipping risk. I have a deductible the meets my risk threshold and I self-insure losses below the deductible.)

 

Sellers on ebay don't have to adhere to a uniform policy because ebay doesn't require it. And to do so wouldn't make sense. Amazon.com is not required to adhere to some standard insurance/shipping policy. Nor is any other mail order merchant. The ebay marketplace allows buyers and sellers to come together on a set of mutually agreed terms (typically offered by the seller and agreed to by the buyer). The buyers pay the sellers' posted shipping charges. Some sellers offer insurance, some don't. Those that do price at at varying levels. Some re-insure some or all of their risk. Others, self-insure. If the package is lost, the buyer takes it up with the seller. What happens after that depends on the reputation of the seller.

 

If the shipping charge in your example was $7.00 without insurance or $8.65 with insurance, then the insurance cost you $1.65 not $7.19. The meter strip shows the seller's cost of shipping not his cost of insurance. It sounds like your gripe should be about the shipping charge rather than the insurance charge. Your seller marked up the shipping $5.54. It is not clear what he did on the insurance. He could be subsidizing the insurance coverage for all we know.

 

"If self insured then the Buyer has a right to know befrehand what the Seller will do if the item is lost if they have paid for the optional insurance. " The Seller will pay the buyer. That's how insurance works. What other result could there? And whatever other result you think is possible how can you be assured it is different if the Seller re-insures through the USPS? The better question is to ask the Seller's who re-insure through the USPS how quickly they'll pay you or replace the item after a claim is filed and whether they'll pay you in full or replace the item even if the USPS denies or partial pays the claim.

 

WH

[wayneherndon]

I have mentioned similar things in other posts especially concerning feedback.There are excellent Sellers on E Bay. The problem is that many if not all these excellent Sellers defend the not so good Sellers through General observations and tend to ignore the Specifics.I have just given a case where I read all the glorious positive feedback and the Seller took 4-6 weeks to ship every one of his coins

 

I just had another case where TRB Coins on EBAY who sells only VAM Morgans and claims that he and two others that grade the coins have 70 years experience between them. He not only gives exact grades for his raw coins which is against the E Bay policy of only the top four certified TPGs but recenlt sent me two coins. One did not have the top 50 designation that he claims 70 years experience nailed but their 70 years experience also missed a coin that was body bagged because of improper cleaning.

 

Yes, eBay is full of sharks. It very well may be possible that there are more crooked sellers there than honest ones.

 

In general you need to find yourself some sellers you are comfortable dealing with. Good sellers will take care of you on grading, pricing, service and when a package is lost (irrespective of how or whether it was insured).

 

The others will screw you over, not just on grades, prices, service, shipping charges, etc. but also when the package is lost. You'll be left all alone to deal with the USPS and an uncooperative shipper and your attempt to get a replacement or reimbursement will be futile.

 

When buying mail order (and especially via eBay), spend the effort picking the right seller and don't fret about how he insures his packages.

 

WH

[CHABSENTIA]

All of this sounds good but most of it can be reduced to one sentence and that is that " the insurance depends on the Seller irrespective of the Insurance of the Seller".

 

Otherwise it just goes around in circles. You state in one sentence that if "Insurance is purchased and the package is lost that the seller has to reimburse the Buyer". This is not necessarily true because there is no evidence that the Insurance has been purchased if it has not been purchased through the USPS. Here is where we now depend on the above statement where it depends on the Integrity of the Seller.

 

If by self insured you mean any type of Insurance than the USPS then there is no guarantee then the definition is misleading and means nothing just as your example where the Seller charges insurance but does not really formally insure it but relies on collecting this optional and extra fee and relying on the fact that the number of packages lost will not be as much as the greater fee. At the same time, if the package is lost and the Buyer has not purchased any type of Insurance then the Seller can say " I told you that i will not be responsible for uninsured packages." Also if the Seller does not purchase a " delivery confiramtion": then how does either the Buyer or Seller know the package was actually mailed? I can see where some might charge extra for Insurance and then buy the cheaper "delivery confirmation" so that hey can not only prove to the Buyer tha the package was delivered but the buyer can keep track of it. Some sellers don't even buy it.

 

I had one seller who stated that if the item was lost that they would forward the insurance receipt to the Buyer and would answer questions but the Buyer was responsible for filing the claim etc. I have no problem with this method.

 

The problem all boils down to the fact that in the absence of such statements the Buyer is at the Mercy of the Seller as you say and that the whole thing depends on the Seller irrespective of the type of Insurance.You can hide it in lengthy paragraphs and describe the various functions in long paragraphs but these two sentences are the essence of the whole thing.

 

Such sentences as being at the "Mercy of the Seller" and it all depends on the " Seller irrespective of the Insurance" hardly describes a reason for 100% of EBay sellers being above board much less comapring them to Lloyds.

 

Again. I am not asking what type of Insurance is possessed by a Seller or what sort of a Profit they are making or how grateful the Buyer should be because they are saving them Money etc by not going through the USPS. I really don't care what Insurance Vendor is being used by them.

 

My only question is and always has been " What is the Seller going to do if I purchase the Insurance option and my package is lost?'What they do is give a false sense of Security by saying " I will not be responsible for lost packages if you do not purchase insurance".It says nothing about what they will do if the Buyer pays the cost of the optional insurance and the package is lost.Your statements of the Buyer is at the Sellers Mercy and depends on the Seller irrespective of the Insurance belies any notion that there is a guarantee that each and every seller on Ebay will re-imburse the loss of the coin in any price range .

[CHABSENTIA]

TRB coins did well until the one coin did not have the promused Vam and the other was improperly cleaned. I got a few responses on this forum such as " would you have sent him more Money if the coin/s had graded higher?" These are obviuosly comments made to side with the Seller.

 

The fact of the matter is that One Coin graded the Sellers opinion of a MS 65 while the others were for the most part were a grade lower and in one case two grades lower.So yes I would have gone along with that reasoning if the Seller had agreed in advance that he would refund me the difference of a lower grade befire they were submitted.When I replied that this was the case I received no answer from then which further implies to me that they are 100% for the Seller in all cases .

 

My big concern with TRB coins was that the coins would grade so they couldn;t be damaged or improperly cleaned. I was assured this would not be the case as the Seller and two other people that had 70 years experience and this would not happen and that they were graded with a 1000 10X Microscope;

 

I had purchased several coins until the last two. One did not have the Vam which 70 years of experience missed and the other was improperly cleaned which 70 years of experience missed so the comfortabilty index disappeared after the fact.

 

Again I am not fretting about the Insured packages. I don't care whether they are making a profit on the extra Postage etc or how they are I sured. I memrely want to know what the Seller is going to do if the pacage is lost if I have apif the extra fees.

[World Colonial]

The answer to all of your concerns with insurance on this thread is simple. Either you have recourse with the seller or if you paid with Paypal, you can charge them back if they do not deliver Who they bought their insurance from or whether they did not does not matter. If the seller does not care about their customers, the buyer is still going to get shortchanged regardless of which of the many scenarious you outlined applies because there is no insurance against a lousy seller. They are the ones who create the risks you describe. Even if they buy the insurance, they may still cost you by neglect simply by doing nothing to file a claim or help you file a claim. (By the way, though I am a limited eBay seller, I find the very idea that any seller would dump the claims filing process on the buyer to be completely absurd. I did not even know this was possible as I have always understood that only the buyer of the insurance could do so.)

 

The other thing I cannot understand (not just in this thread but in many others) is why do so many people put up with this when most of the material they are buying is common material. Wouldn't it just be easier to deal with the good coin dealers who carry this stuff? It might cost more but part of the reason this type of thing happens to people is because they get ripped off by trying to buy something cheap.

 

Every time I see an eBay listing for a raw coin, I usually assume that it is a problem coin unless I have a reason to believe otherwise. In my case, the coins are usually "improperly cleaned" or corroded (if copper or bronze) but the listing is almost always silent to that fact. Sometimes it is obvious and sometimes it is not until I receive the coin. But I believe that few sellers will state this even if they know it. It would reduce their sale price. I compensate for this risk by refusing to pay more than a cheap price for these coins and I do not try to buy even moderately priced coins from these sellers. (I might as well just throw my money away.) If the coin turns out to be a problem coin, sometimes it is essentially a complete loss and other times I send it to NCS and then get rid of it, either at a slight loss or even a small profit.

 

When I buy from a coin dealer, I also assume that the coin has problems just as I described. I only deal with two dealers regularly, but of the few coins I bought from others, about half of them have either not been eligible for grading or were rejected. These were also established dealers so I have come to the conclusion that this is irrelevant.

[CHABSENTIA]

I gave an example of the Seller I found that for some reason deliivered non coin Merchandise fast but all coins took 4-6 weeks for delivery. This Seller had a 99.1% positive rating. You would not have known about the delivery times for the coins unless you checked each and every coin item in the deailed feedback.So at what oint in the 4-6 week period would you suggest that I check with Pay Pal? Is there a time limit in which the coin has to be shipped once itt is paid for by the Buyer. If so then E Bay is not enforcing it. I had a situation just before this where the Seller tnaked me for paying for the cointhe next day and then told me it had been shipped and gave me the USPS tracking number. He did not mail it until 5 days later. When I wrote and told him that there was no record he still told me it had ben sent. There was a feedback that the Seller had shipping issues and I wrote this Buyer and received an answer that "It was water under the bridge".

 

I have read messages on this Forum where Pay Pal did not refund the whole payment by the Buyer and I saw a situation on T.V. where a Buyer returned an article to meet the 3 day return time frame and when he was ignored by the Seller he notified Pay Pal who jerked him around because they wanted evidence of the damage which he didn;t have because he had to return it in three days to satisfy the refund Policy.

 

All of these things sound nice in theory ,however, do not always work out in the real world.My point was that there are no uniform policies or they are not being enforced. I used Insurance as an example. The fact is that the Buyer is at the mercy of the Seller and to a large extent depends on the Integrity of the Seller. It is not one sided on the side of the Buyer as some here would like others to believe.

 

I would do business with a coin dealer if that was possible. You would think that a City as big as Jacksonville Florida would have some.They don't have one. There are no coin clubs and I have never seen a Coin show here.

 

 

I don't know if it is possible for the Seller to dump the whole claims process on the Buyer. This was in his 'terms".If this is not according to EBay policies than it is another example of EBAY not enforcing somehting.

 

My point is that there are no uniform policies and Ebay does not do anything to track or remedy it.Buyers are pretty much at the mercy of the Slellers and dependent on their Integrity. It would be nice if all ones needs could be filled by one or two of the most reputable but that is not always the case.

 

[World Colonial]

OK, point taken.

 

But on the subject of coin dealers, if you have none in your area, then you will have to buy remotely no matter whether the dealer is good or bad. And so you might as well deal with the good ones because the bad are usually not going to be the only ones who have what most collectors are trying to buy.

 

I do not recall what you collect, but the point that I was trying to make is that what most collectors buy is not rare, scarce or hard to find at all unless they are looking for conditional rarities, specimens with a particular eye appeal or possibly die varieties. (And with eye appeal, the bad dealer who sells the problem coins you mention is not going to sell those anyway.) When I hear someone mention that a particular US coin is supposedly scarce or hard to find, it usually takes me about two minutes to go to the Heritage archives and find many to plenty of them which sold in the last year. If I can find a few good dealers who carry some of the material I buy, then just about everyone else should be able to do so as well.

[TheMightyDuke]

I hate to say it, but personally, and no personal affront to the OP, but I dont think there is any argument. It DID state insurance is required...if you need to know a cost, and the dont show it, first rule is click 'ask seller a question' link, and ask. Quite honestly, the extra $1.65 is the actual USPS cost for that much, so he didnt gaffe you on it, as many MANY sellers do. Sure, the $5.99 SHOULD include shipping (when I am a seller, my shipping price includes insurance, and unless its a high priced item, I send them at $5.50-$6.50, insurance included, and I DO use the USPS insurance tags), but it didnt, and you should have assumed the insurance cost was above and beyond the $5.99, but you didnt read the entire thing. I am not trying to put you down, but I dont believe you should be ranting to the seller...sure, venting here is cool, but you have seen posts stating the seller was not totally at fault, he could have done it in a more diplomatic way, but he didnt....and bottom line is, you bid, you bought, you didnt ask how much insurance, you didnt read the whole list of instructions (personally, with that much reading for rules, I click the back button and move on). I dont think its an expensive lesson to learn from at all, and you DID get the coin you wanted, and it wasnt THAT much extra...sure, we all try to figure in the shipping/ins when we bid....but here again, you never asked him how much. Had you done this, and he told you it was an extra $1.65, would you have still bought the coin? You yourself said you NEEDED the coin...would that $1.65 chase you from the auction?? If you can answer NO, I think you should just move on, learn from it, and find the 'ask seller a question' link just under his feedback rating. I am NOT trying to put you down, or anything like that. Its just one of those lessons we all learn, and yours was a very very cheap lesson. Count your blessings....he could have been one of those that charges $19.99 to avert fees...and we have all seen THOSE auctions.

[CHABSENTIA]

That wasn't it. I specifically said that the cost of Insurance was $1.65 and the shipping was $7.00.

 

The package had postage of $1.47. Therefore I paid $7.00 + $1.65 or a total of $8.65. The difference between $8.65 and $1,47 is $7.19 or put another way the difference between the two is $7.19 between what I paid the Seller and the noted postage,

 

My point here was in answer to your argument that Sellers that are self insured are charging more money to compensate over the long run if they are self insured to cover the occaasional loss. I understand this is a common practice. If I sent a package and pay for delivery confirmation thrn thr cost is $.65 for me.There was no evidence of this and when the Mail carrier put it in the mailbox he did not use his Scanner. So the Seller has made a $7.19 profit via mailing regardless of whether he is self insured or not. Read my post over again and you will see that I did put the Insurance charge as $1.65.

 

Apples and oranges. I would not ever call Lloyds of London to ask them such a question. I know the reputation of Lloyds of London and a question of their policies would be ludicrous. Comparing Lloyds of London to the reputation of the average E Bay seller is Ludicrous.

 

 

I know how Insurance works and it is a little Naive to think that 100% of Sellers on E Bay will honor it. There was no evidence that the Seller insured through USPs because it didn't happen in this case. I never mentioned a time frame . My point has always been about the Insurance itself.

 

In this case, I had not received the package five days after I had paid for it. I wrote the Seller and the Seller told me that he had mixed it up with other packages and it hadn't gone out until that 5th day.He then got really defensive and told me that he was an Honest Seller. I had only asked if the package had been sent.

 

When I received the article and noticed that there was no indication of Delivery confirmation on it or Insurance he respoded " " What do you care?. You got your Coin? Earlier he had also complained about the USPS and how he had to stand in line since it was the Christmas season and had mailed my package when he first responded and Thanked me for paying so soon.Now here we have a case of a Seller who:

 

1. Tells me that he had to stand in line at the Post office etc and mail my package when it wasn't even sent out until five days later.

2.There is no indication of Insurance or a deleivery confirmation on the package

3. The guy gets defensive and makes all these ther comments.

 

So this is the Seller that should have my utmost trust on honoring a comittment?

 

As far as being upset about the shipping charge I will reapeat it again. If I decide to bid on an item and I read the terms of the Seller and he states there is a $7.00 charge for shipping then by bidding on the item I have agreed to a $7.00 shipping charge. If I don't lime the shipping charge or think it is excessive then I don't have to bid so why should I be more upset about it?

 

The problem of this thread has always been the Insurance. If the Seller states in his/her "terms" the rate they charge for Insurance then by bidding I am agreeing to pay that charge.Again no problem.

 

 

I buy Insurance for piece of mind in the case/s that I use that option. In this case I did not find out until after the fact when my bidding was successful tha the Seller lied about when he sent my package and got very defensive when I asked if it had been sent and then gave men a lame excuse. I consider it lame because he distinctly told me that he had stood in a long line and mailed it and then told me he had made a mistake and it sat with other packages for 5 days.. Then there was no evidence of Insurance on the package.

 

 

This is the Seller who you expect me to trust and that will honor the concept of Insurance.

 

Again. There is no method in place on EBAY where the Buyer can be sure that the Seller will honor any Insurance or if they are self insured. There are some that will roll the dice and hope the package will not be lost and there are some that will roll the dice and if the package is lost will do nothing even if you have purchased the optional Insurance.The latter is not the way the Concept of Insurance works,It is the Policy you can trust with Lloyds of London 100% but on EBay you can't assume it .

 

[CHABSENTIA]

I am not sure whether you are replying to me or not since I did not give a link for the "terms". and you are referring to the reading of them

 

I never said I objected to any charge. I said in each and every one of my posts that by bidding I had agreed to the Postage and by agreeing to the optional Insurance charge that I had also agreed ot it. There has never been any posts from me that I thought they were too high.

 

My Point/s were and always have been that the Seller lied to me about when the item was sent, gave me a lame excuse when I had not received it for 5 days and got defensive etc.

 

This Seller also stated in his "terms' that he would supply the tracking number of the item after he notified you that he had mailed the article. When I had not received the article 5 days after he said he had mailed it and I asked for the tracking number he informed me that the Post Office doesn't supply tracking numbers unless you specifically purchase one. He didn't specify UPS or Fedex. He said on all packages.

 

The problem was that I did not finf out all this until after the fact when it was too late and judging by the attitude of this Seller I doubt very seriously whether I would have been re-imbursed by him if the package had been lost even though I had purchased the optional Insurance and that is the problem.

[just-john]

A BUCK SIXTY i read all these darn post about a $1.60 ? Now I know I need to get a LIFE but didn't know so many others needed one too.Can't remember when I ever looked at insurance charges I always look at the coin if it's good I'm happy If you were to buy 10 coins per month for a year that's 120 x1.60 thats $192.00 HECK you can pay more insurance

money than that on one coin.

Gas is $3.39 spoon about that but $1.60 take a pill some people are only happy when they can bitspoonch 9 pages for a buck 60 pages must be on sale --lets go to 10

[EZ_E]

I guess that if someone has been shipping enough coins for long enough then they would know the shipping rates down to the cent. Me, on the other hand, am just starting selling on ebay and I'm not sure how much the postage will cost me. I'm charging five bucks on most and will ship priority mail which costs a bit more. So, that solved my dilemma about how much to charge. Maybe later, I'll modify the charges once I learn the system better.

[harvey8542]

Thats what I used to do EZ E but now I use 1st class and all shipping is free unless I know it is a cheap item less than $15. This I find keeps the buyers happy still gets there reasonably fast and with delivery confirmation is usualy less than $2

[EZ_E]

I didn't think that you could get delivery confirmation on first class mail, Harv. It would be great if you could. Because without it, a stranger could tell you to go bite yourself, he never got the package. I'll check into this. Thanks!!

[TomB]

Delivery confirmation does not prove that the recipient ever received the item, it only proves that someone within the post office of destination scanned the item into the database.

[JKK]

A BUCK SIXTY i read all these darn post about a $1.60 ?

 

Well, I can see objecting to paying the $1.60, perhaps, if one hadn't seen anything in the terms of sale requiring it. One could have missed the reference. Therefore, I see no problem with Jeff writing:

I agreed to purchase a 2008 1-ounce silver libertad from you, expecting to pay the $29.25 + $5.99 shipping. The invoice included an additional charge of $1.60 for insurance. I don't recall anything in the listing that stipulates this charge. Please show me where your listing mentions it. If it doesn't, then I don't feel I should be charged for it.

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

 

What I don't understand is getting all confrontational as one's first option. That's just not good business for buyer or seller. First one wants to check one's facts and bear in mind the possibility one might be wrong.

 

That said, the seller doubled the emotional stakes and compounded the problem. I see no problem with the seller replying:

 

Dear Jeff,

Please see paragraph (whichever) of our listing where it does state that insurance is required. Despite this, if you object strongly to paying for insurance, we will relieve you of any obligation to purchase the coin.

 

Best,

The Coinmerchant

 

In short, I don't think either party handled this to his advantage, or in a businesslike fashion, and I think it's sad. And if I had $50K a year to spend on coins, I sure wouldn't get angry over $1.60. I'd just pay it, check my facts carefully, and if I'd been right, I wouldn't shop with that dealer again. If they didn't blindside me, then the transaction was fair. If they did, then the best retribution for them is to lose a client while never knowing what they did wrong. That's about the meanest thing you can do to a bad company, and if it's truly a bad company, they have it coming: simply walk away, deny them any chance to fix it, and make sure neither you nor anyone you know ever spends money with them again. I've done that to a local HVAC company that screwed me pretty badly, and I'd estimate that I have cost them several HVAC sales to homeowners plus dropped a quiet word with some local multiple-unit buyers who might have spent six figures with them. I decided to really get my $583 worth, and I am continuing to collect each time I retell my story to someone looking for HVAC. Doing that to them is like inflicting a bleeding abscess on them that will never heal.

 

I also don't see how it makes coin dealers in general 'just above vermin' over one online seller's $1.60. My local coin dealer is great, is not scum, and I always feel I get good value from them. They're always willing to look at a coin and help me understand a nuance of grading. And when I get my purchases home and have time to examine them at leisure, I often find that they have graded a bit conservatively and given me more than fair value. I also don't think most of the people on this forum who deal in coins are anything like vermin. In fact, I think it's the opposite. A respected regular here would be one of the first people I'd choose to deal with sight unseen, because that person has a rep to uphold. If they were marked lousy even once, it would follow them around forever. No smart businessperson would use his or her financial drinking water well as a latrine, so to speak--that would be like deliberately fingerprinting his or her proof coins.

[jtryka]

Ok, ok, I was wrong, you were all right, just let this freaking thread die already!