Why are Washington quarters so difficult to grade?

[rons]

Why are early and silver Washington quarters so difficult to get a high grade in? I have seen some beautiful unmarked outstanding quarters posted that only get grades of 66 or 67. What is that makes a high grade so rare for them? Is it poor strikes, stringent grading standards, minute marks, or???? I just can't figure them out. Any insight/thoughts/opinions are greatly appreciated.

[MTHead-migration]

Only get a 66 or 67 out of a possible 70?

 

That's like a 94 or 96 out of 100.

 

What do you consider "high grade"?

[jgrinz]

Why are early and silver Washington quarters so difficult to get a high grade in? I have seen some beautiful unmarked outstanding quarters posted that only get grades of 66 or 67. What is that makes a high grade so rare for them? Is it poor strikes, stringent grading standards, minute marks, or???? I just can't figure them out. Any insight/thoughts/opinions are greatly appreciated.

 

I concur - I usally post mine for sale as XF/AU/BU and take good pictures

let the coin speak for themselves.

[CHABSENTIA]

Isn't a 94 out of a hundred an "A" in School?

[James_OldeTowne]

With experience, I've found that it is actually one of the easier series to grade.

[jgrinz]

With experience, I've found that it is actually one of the easier series to grade.

 

Write a WYNTK please

 

[RGT]

With experience, I've found that it is actually one of the easier series to grade.

 

I know that there are a few "zealots" who will want to shoot me for saying this, but I have never found the series interesting enough to get that experience. But I think your statement is true of many series that some find difficult to grade.

[Dcoin]

I have always found the light detail of the design is what makes it difficult.

 

For example... the Morgan $ is rich in detail therefore it makes its easy to find indicators for a grade. I know what the hairline and breast feathers are supposed to look like. It's the added detail that make a grade easy or hard IMO.

 

[kryptonitecomics]

With experience, I've found that it is actually one of the easier series to grade.

 

Me two....I find that I am within one point + or - of the grading services 100% of the time

 

I find that the coins available in the double mint sets are pretty easy to locate 1947-1958....in ms65+ condition. I have purchased 6 of these old sets recently and all of the quarters will be submitted for grading. If anyone is interested in seeing the grade ranges from the 1955-1958 sets....I'll be glad to post them

[BECOKA]

Not sure what it is but older Washington quarters typically suffer from a weak strike. In order to reach the higher grades the strike has to be strong as well.

 

Most likely this is the reason.

[coinman1794]

Why are early and silver Washington quarters so difficult to get a high grade in? I have seen some beautiful unmarked outstanding quarters posted that only get grades of 66 or 67. What is that makes a high grade so rare for them? Is it poor strikes, stringent grading standards, minute marks, or???? I just can't figure them out. Any insight/thoughts/opinions are greatly appreciated.

 

Many of the Washington Quarters on the market seem undergraded at first glance. There are some amazingly lustrous, seemingly pristine coins in MS65 and MS66 holders. The reason for this is that the series is PLAGUED by counting wheel marks and grease filled dies, both of which cause the graders to downgrade the coins, despite the virtually microscopic nature of the problem.

 

Counting wheel marks will bodybag a Washington quarter if they are readily apparent, but many silver Washington (probably 30-40%) have a trace of CW damage hidden on the coin (usually under some light toning or just grazed across the high points. The graders will spot this every time, and the grade will be greatly affected. The nicest pieces wont grade past MS66, and many MS66 pieces on the market would have been MS67 or even MS68, if not for the CW damage. Halogen light is the easiest way to detect it.

 

The next problem is a minute trace of roughness often seen across the high-points of the curls around the ear, and the hair around the forhead. This is caused by grease filled dies; the silver can't completely fill the deepest recesses of the dies because of the grease, and it leaves a rough impression in the high points of the coin. (when a grease strike-through mark apears on the fields of a coin or the is obvious on the design elements, it does not affect the grade. But when it fills the high points of the dies, the result on the high points of the coin closely resembles rub, and this will hurt the grade. I'm not sure if the graders know the difference between rub and this. But there is a difference, but an otherwise MS67 might grade MS65 because of this.

 

The vast majority of MS67 washington quarters are completely free of these two problems, and it's very interesting to examine large numbers of them to see this. In fact, 67s might even have a couple ticks and a poor strike, but they will not have CW damage or the grease roughness. I do believe this to be the differencial in determining MS67+ grades. It doesnt seem fair when a flawless coin grades MS65 and a lightly marked coin grades MS67, but 99% of the time, the difference between the two is CW damage or grease roughness from filled dies, which resembles wear.

[jesbroken]

I can't imagine being upset with any silver coin that grades MS66-67. Only the modern coins get the MS68 and up on the average. IMHO

[cladking]

I can't imagine being upset with any silver coin that grades MS66-67. Only the modern coins get the MS68 and up on the average. IMHO

 

 

The clad Washingtins can be orders of magnitude more difficult to find in high grade than the early issues.

[Zoins]

I can't imagine being upset with any silver coin that grades MS66-67. Only the modern coins get the MS68 and up on the average. IMHO

An above average coin

 

[cladking]

 

Many of the Washington Quarters on the market seem undergraded at first glance. There are some amazingly lustrous, seemingly pristine coins in MS65 and MS66 holders. The reason for this is that the series is PLAGUED by counting wheel marks and grease filled dies, both of which cause the graders to downgrade the coins, despite the virtually microscopic nature of the problem.

 

Counting wheel marks will bodybag a Washington quarter if they are readily apparent, but many silver Washington (probably 30-40%) have a trace of CW damage hidden on the coin (usually under some light toning or just grazed across the high points. The graders will spot this every time, and the grade will be greatly affected. The nicest pieces wont grade past MS66, and many MS66 pieces on the market would have been MS67 or even MS68, if not for the CW damage. Halogen light is the easiest way to detect it.

 

The next problem is a minute trace of roughness often seen across the high-points of the curls around the ear, and the hair around the forhead. This is caused by grease filled dies; the silver can't completely fill the deepest recesses of the dies because of the grease, and it leaves a rough impression in the high points of the coin. (when a grease strike-through mark apears on the fields of a coin or the is obvious on the design elements, it does not affect the grade. But when it fills the high points of the dies, the result on the high points of the coin closely resembles rub, and this will hurt the grade. I'm not sure if the graders know the difference between rub and this. But there is a difference, but an otherwise MS67 might grade MS65 because of this.

 

The vast majority of MS67 washington quarters are completely free of these two problems, and it's very interesting to examine large numbers of them to see this. In fact, 67s might even have a couple ticks and a poor strike, but they will not have CW damage or the grease roughness. I do believe this to be the differencial in determining MS67+ grades. It doesnt seem fair when a flawless coin grades MS65 and a lightly marked coin grades MS67, but 99% of the time, the difference between the two is CW damage or grease roughness from filled dies, which resembles wear.

 

 

Interesting and informative post... ...thanks.

 

Isn't it also true that the services are demand strong strikes on these now days in the very high grades?

 

Even the silver issues had a lot of trouble with poor strikes. The tops of the letters around the periphery are the last to fill and these are often weak or incomplete.

[DC Dawg]

It is very interesting and makes sense.

 

However, if anyone finds an MS68-70 1976 Silver or Clad Quarters, let me know. I am in that market!!

 

Scott

[jgrinz]

I can't imagine being upset with any silver coin that grades MS66-67. Only the modern coins get the MS68 and up on the average. IMHO

An above average coin

 

 

hmm does not look like a Washington quarter to me ...

 

[James_OldeTowne]

With experience, I've found that it is actually one of the easier series to grade.

 

Write a WYNTK please

Briefly, the design is free of sharp, finer details such as what are found on Morgans, or Liberty nickels (for example). Therefore, when bagmarks or handing marks are imparted to the coin, they tend to be easily found. I have more difficulty grading coins where marks are easily lost or camouflaged within the details.

 

Also, with a few exceptions (most notably, the 1936-D and some later 1940s S-mint coins), the luster on Washington quarters tends to be fairly similar from coin to coin. High grade coins simply must have sizzling luster! If it doesn't, then don't even begin to think above the MS-64 grade level.

[jgrinz]

luster on Washington quarters tends to be fairly similar from coin to coin. High grade coins simply must have sizzling luster! If it doesn't, then don't even begin to think above the MS-64 grade level.

 

Do we have an example of 'sizzling' luster ?

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Do we have an example of 'sizzling' luster ?

I checked my inventory, and unfortunately, I do not at this time .

[TomB]

The Washington quarter series is far different from most of its contemporaries, save the Peace dollar series, in that it was produced with shallow relief. The design as it was produced on the dies would not allow the production of what we might term uniformly well-struck coins. In fact, many of these coins were likely well struck, but there was not the fine, bold design present on the die to begin with and, hence, the coins can look mushy. Coins that truly do not have good strikes will also suffer in the luster aspect of the coin. Lastly, the wide open obverse fields shows hits and marks very easily and these stand out more than on a coin with a detailed, complex design such as a Morgan dollar.

 

If one goes by the traditional PCGS paradigm for grading this series one will find pieces that are fabulously clean and with good luster can be found down to the MS66 grade while exceptionally clean white coins with great luster will go MS67 while those with good color are given much more slack and can be found with the MS66 grade even though they have relatively significant hits. The grade of MS68 is reserved for those coins with outstanding eye appeal, nearly no hits and nearly limitless luster.

[TomB]

The following obverse image is somewhat overlit and if the coin were white I do not think it would have received the MS66 grade because of the long, old scratch from near the top of Washington's forehead to half-way through his hair. However, the coin has blazing luster in-hand. I have additional WQs with better luster, but do no have images handy of them.

[rons]

Keep the facts and opinions coming. I am learning a lot from the free flow of information in this thread and that was my intent I will try and do some numbers research because it seems that ms68 is a very rare grade for a washie. I would love to see a picture if anyone has one to share. Thanks and keep up talking and sharing the knowledge.

[TomB]

PCGS has certified significanly fewer WQs in MS68 than NGC has and if you go to the PCGS website you can see that there are only 32 regular issue 1932-1964 WQs in that grade. I am familiar with a number of these since I had been heavily in this niche in the late 1990s and early 2000s. In fact, one of the 1947-S MS68 WQs listed in their pop report was from me. Go to the Heritage auction archive and look up this grade and you will see some nice coins.

[robec1347]

The following obverse image is somewhat overlit and if the coin were white I do not think it would have received the MS66 grade because of the long, old scratch from near the top of Washington's forehead to half-way through his hair. However, the coin has blazing luster in-hand. I have additional WQs with better luster, but do no have images handy of them.

Scratch or no scratch, Tom, that is one gorgeous Washington.

[Bruceswar]

I agree with just about everything TomB has said requarding Washingtons. I will add NGC in my eyes Tends to give coins a color bump more than PCGS. By color bump I mean giving that coin from MS66 to MS67 due to color. Washington Collectors have come to know this and thus the price difference in most MS67 Washingtons graded by the 2 services. MS68 is a very very special grade and rightfull so. Having look at a few Washingtons myself I can tell you grading of this series can be tough at first, but I find it easy now. Understanding strike vs wear and luster will help you in grading Washingtons.

[Bruceswar]

The following obverse image is somewhat overlit and if the coin were white I do not think it would have received the MS66 grade because of the long, old scratch from near the top of Washington's forehead to half-way through his hair. However, the coin has blazing luster in-hand. I have additional WQs with better luster, but do no have images handy of them.

 

That is one sweet quarter. Every time I see that coin I fall in love again! For those who do not know that scratch made this coin into worth a few hundread bucks. Had the scratch not been there, this coin is easy into the thousands.