How arrogant is MS. Laura Sperber in her most recent "Hot Topics" wherein....

[gmarguli]

Greg: I'm a minority owner in Legend and a miniscule non voting shareholder in CAC... certainly less than 1%. So small, in fact, that the profits [if any] are completely irrelevant to me. While I'd prefer not to actually lose my investment, even a loss would be acceptable to me in return for what I believe are positive impacts on the industry side of numismatics...many of which have already occurred.

 

Someone doing something ethical in this hobby without regard to profit ... shocking!

Just so the above post by TDN doesn't get lost for too long.

 

Don't worry Mark, I didn't miss it. I was just going to let the issue die as I know TDN & I will never see eye to eye on the value of CAC and I think we are both happy to let each other have his own opinion, but since I guess you want it debated more, I'm willing to oblige.

 

Therefore, I'd point out that while TDN may not make any significant money off his ownership position in CAC, he will likely make money off the ability of Legend to submit coins it purchases to CAC and get a sticker and resell these coins at a higher price than non-stickered coins.

 

He should also benefit from having Legend submit clearly inferior coins to CAC so they can be rejected. (Wasn't there a post about Legend submitting some awful gold coins to CAC and them all failing to sticker???). After all, had the person bought the coins from a dealer who knows what they are doing - Legend - then the collector wouldn't have been stuck with garbage. Here, buy my CAC stickered coins for more money...

 

He will also benefit from the illusion that Legend only deals in high end coins by being able to fill their cases with coins stickered by CAC as being Premium Quality. High end/PQ coins equal PQ prices. However, sadly, as we now know, the term Premium Quality has been redefined by CAC to mean something that it has never meant in the past and would not be apparent or logical to most people in this industry.

 

And should the sight unseen market for these coins take off, he will benefit by Legend making bids for them and reselling them - potentially increasing his business. He did mention that he put up $1M in backing as a market maker.

 

So in closing, while I do fully believe Bruce that he will not be getting rich(er) off CAC, I do believe that it would benefit his business - minority owner or not - by having the CAC succeed.

[BillJones]

I'm not going to go into a lot of details, but I just returned a CAC approved coin because it didn't cut it. The piece was in a PCGS holder, and it had file marks on the obverse. The only thing I could figure was there must of have been some sort of offensive spot on the piece, and someone removed it long ago in that crude way. These did not have the look of adjustment marks, and they were made AFTER the coin was struck.

 

The CAC 2X2 card was still with the piece that stated that the coin was "PQ." I'm afraid I could not agree with that accessment in any way shape or form.

 

My recent experience has led me to the conclusion that you can't take the grading on CAC approved coins for granted.

[DC Dawg]

Sorry, Scott, but to me, at least, you never adequately addressed the issue of what a data base could prove to anyone regarding the detection of problem coins in holders. People will either believe that problem coins are in holders or not, regardless of any data base statistics, based upon the opinions of CAC.

I want to know what their opinions are. If they have evidence that there are problems, I want to understand what they are seeing. It is reasonable to know there are problems, but I want to know to what extent the CAC sees the problems.

 

Just like NGC and PCGS gives us their opinion on the authenticity and grade of the coins, the CAC gives their opinion on the work of the TPGs. I want to compare opinions with data that does not say "we've seen many slabbed coins with problems." Define many?

 

I don't know how to explain it better. Maybe you are too close to the situation to understand. From an outsider's view, I want to know, definitively, what they found. I see that as a reasonable request to understand the purpose for my evaluation of the market.

 

Scott

[Tradedollarnut]

Greg - why is it always about the money with you?

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've already calculated the net effect upon Legend as a negative. In fact, it's funny that Laura suddenly woke up about a month ago and said "you know, eventually they're not going to need us anymore". I laughed and said "you just figured that out?"

 

Legend's biggest competition is the auctions. Big players believe they can buy coins in auction on their own, cutting out the middleman with the expertise to steer them away from bad coins. The CAC sticker will probably cause more defections away from Legend to the auctions, since they will feel more comfortable without representation. This far overwhelms any increase in profits on nice coins bought privately. Don't forget - as prices go up, so do the costs of the coins. I can't count the number of times Laura's been offered a deal and had to pass because the guy wanted more than what Legend could sell it for. The all time record is 5 times retail - a guy just asked that for a huge deal.

[EZ_E]

He will also benefit from the illusion that Legend only deals in high end coins by being able to fill their cases with coins stickered by CAC as being Premium Quality. High end/PQ coins equal PQ prices. However, sadly, as we now know, the term Premium Quality has been redefined by CAC to mean something that it has never meant in the past and would not be apparent or logical to most people in this industry.

 

This is the whole reason that I am opposed to the CAC. Afterall, this was the primary role of TPGS to begin with (broke down the 60-70 scale is smaller increments to further pinpoint the grade instead of just using ch. bu or gem bu, etc.). Now that they "can't be trusted" 100% of the time, CAC is needed to say if a coin meets the minimum standards for the grade. Now, that is being distorted to say that any CAC coin deserves a premium because it is PQ but, in reality, it may just be average.

 

The CAC can be packaged anyway you want it but the bottom line is still the same: it is a business trying to fill a niche and make a profit. But, in the end, it is just another rung to jack the collector out of more money.

 

Hey, we're chumps. We dance to the tune of NGC and PCGS. When they tighten up their standards to change public perception, we hold off on submissions or just cross our fingers and hope they make an honest call. We're chumps when we pay dealers a premium for a coin with a sticker on it that may just mean that it meets the minimum standard for that grade. Sometimes I think that I'd have been much better off if I didn't return to collecting. I tell ya, I'd certainly have a hell of a lot more cash money, that's for sure.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

But, in the end, it is just another rung to jack the collector out of more money.

 

With all due respect, most collectors manage to 'jack' themselves much more than CAC will ever 'jack' them.

 

Seriously - if you don't feel you need the extra set of eyes or the subsequent sight unseen market on the coin, then don't buy stickered coins. It's really that simple.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Grading is a subjective science where it would be difficult to collect data and corrolate anything but collector's subjective opinions. Grading gold, in particular, has always been less than a well defined science. I have seen surveys of seasoned professional dealers of gold coins varying as much as (5) grades on sampled incuse gold coins. It is the scrubbed, dipped, lifeless, dull, garbage look of many slabbed, gold coins that is the problem.

 

I was an engineer but am not sure that this variance can be well quantified in any statistical manner. It is opinion. Variance analysis of subjective grading may be the only thing that you can quantify. Maybe you could sample what people think they are seeing, gradewise. However, the real problem is doctoring and widespread low class, for grade inventory in the marketplace. There is no science in that.

[stman]

This is actually a serious question that perhaps TDN might be able to answer. Laura wrote-

This week we submitted to CAC 7 gold coins for a collector who brought them via a major national auction house. EVERY COIN WAS EITHER PUTTIED OR WAS GROSSLY OVER GRADED.

It seems odd to me that Laura would submit seven puttied or grossly overgraded coins to CAC since she should be able to successfully pre-screen at least the grossly overgraded coins out of the submission. What happened here?

 

 

Hmmm, did I miss the answer to this one? And we're supposed to have dealers such as this to screen auction lots for us and be afraid of what we will get on our own? Hahahahaha

[James_OldeTowne]

This is actually a serious question that perhaps TDN might be able to answer. Laura wrote-

This week we submitted to CAC 7 gold coins for a collector who brought them via a major national auction house. EVERY COIN WAS EITHER PUTTIED OR WAS GROSSLY OVER GRADED.

It seems odd to me that Laura would submit seven puttied or grossly overgraded coins to CAC since she should be able to successfully pre-screen at least the grossly overgraded coins out of the submission. What happened here?

I was wondering about this as well.

 

[Houston Investor]

I invest considerably in gold mining stocks, bond fund stocks, and other stocks such as CLCT (with their high dividend yield). In essence, I am my own fund manager. With my auto investment program I pay zero commission on these. Selling, my commission is $9.95 per trade.

 

The commission above CDN Bid that certain dealers are asking for CAC stickered coins is considerable - I don't need to go into the details here - you can go to their site and do the math yourself. In addition, bullion in 2008 has outperformed rare coins by far (PCGS 3000 vs Bullion). Frankly, I find these higher dealer commissions on CAC stickered coins more scary than all the hype about the coin doctors. In addition, a CAC sticker does not prevent a coin from "going bad" in the holder as time combined with reaction with the atmosphere relentlessly marches on.

 

On the other hand, as a businessman I certainly believe you can not stay in the coin business unless you can retail your merchandise. Coins are a hobby, not a commodity. If Laura of Legend can get big money above bid for her CAC stickered big ticket coins in the current economic environment, then cudos to her. I simply would like the opportunity to bid on this material in a Legend Auction. While I detest or dispute some of her opinions, I have no problem making money off her stuff.

[carson city]

When they say, it's not about the money---it is !----Harry Macklowe

[Tradedollarnut]

It seems odd to me that Laura would submit seven puttied or grossly overgraded coins to CAC since she should be able to successfully pre-screen at least the grossly overgraded coins out of the submission. What happened here?

 

She said she felt obligated to submit the coins for the collector because she had agreed to do so...despite the fact the problems were obvious. Since we aren't privy to how the conversation went down or what commitment was made between the two of them regarding the submission, I see no problem with that.

 

[carson city]

Very similar concept to----the blind leading the blind !

[just-john]

I agree bullion has out preformed coins take silver Jan 2000 $5.25 or 2005 $7.00

today 2008 $19.43

think that guy who bought that 1913 nickel for what 1.4 mil if he/she bought silver bullion

26,666/66 O/Z would be worth $5,181.333.33 TODAY

coins as investments only the dealers and auction houses and grading company's and agents along with irs make money.Ever wonder why so many wealthy people leave their collections to schools and museums.They cut out the dealer the agent the auction house and the IRS if they didn't they would lose money

 

[CHABSENTIA]

How about this?

 

1. A dealer supports CAC.

2.Coins are submitted to CAC

3. Fees are paid to CAC

4. Coins are returned as Puttied etc.

5. Dealer tells Customer " See, this demonstrates the need for CAC and the auction houses should do the same"

[gmarguli]

Greg - why is it always about the money with you?

 

Because coins are a multi-billion dollar a year business. When something is done in business you can practically always point to the money as the reason for it.

[James_OldeTowne]

Because coins are a multi-billion dollar a year business. When something is done in business you can practically always point to the money as the reason for it.

Regardless of the context of Greg's statement, I believe it is so true. And that is unfortunate in the context of a "hobby".

[jackson64]

Parker, is that putty I see?

 

 

[EZ_E]

 

 

 

 

As Parker knows very well, near bullion non rare coins trade near CDN bid, however nice numismatic treasures with any sort of date premium rarely do.

WOW---try telling us something that isn't so obvious. Does CAC refer to Choose Another Coin ?

 

CC, I know that you and TDN have a history going but if you were wise you'd choose to absorb some of Bruce's knowledge instead of spouting sarcasm. There are very few numismatists in this world that can even come close to him.

 

And, if this doesn't convince you then be aware that he is a multi-millionaire and he can have you whacked and get away with it!

[WoodenJefferson]

90

 

10 more and we can all go to bed.

[carson city]

PS---he can whack me any time he wishes !

[rons]

Oh, CC you are such a tease

[EZ_E]

Oh, CC you are such a tease

 

[DC Dawg]

Gee... I'm impressed folks... this is the first time one thread has hit 100 responses since the last "argument" about the CAC. The last time was in mid-November started by our friend CC. You can find that thread here.

 

Keep up the good work!! (thumbs u

 

 

Scott

[Tradedollarnut]

For those who can't wait until the quarterly statistics are published, if you can read between the lines you can get a feel for what percentage of coins are getting stickered by looking at collections in recent & upcoming auctions.

[carson city]

The problem with CAC is that there isn't anything between the lines. Only more nonsense and double-talk !

[BillJones]

I'll repeat.

 

The last coin CAC approved coin that I had sent to me (passive voice to be fair to the dealer, whom I respect) I returned because the coin had a serious post strike defect. Anyone who thinks that a CAC coin is ALWAYS a no problem coin should take my comments into consideration. CAC should be a guarantee that it is a “no problem” example for the grade. In this case it was not. And believe me, I REALLY wanted this coin to be a no problem example.

[gmarguli]

The last coin CAC approved coin that I had sent to me (passive voice to be fair to the dealer, whom I respect) I returned because the coin had a serious post strike defect. Anyone who thinks that a CAC coin is ALWAYS a no problem coin should take my comments into consideration. CAC should be a guarantee that it is a “no problem” example for the grade. In this case it was not.

 

Perhaps this is a case of stickerflation? Maybe CAC has loosened its standards to appease the marketplace / big submitters.

 

Is it time for another company to start stickering the CAC stickered coins?

 

 

[carson city]

Another layer of stickers is not needed, maybe for nitwits but not for the majority in the coin hobby. NGC & PCGS do just fine and will continue to do so without any back-up needed from CAC !

[mommam17]

I think PCGS and NGC do a great job. 90% of my commem coins are in their holders. But all 65 commems, for example, are not equel. Some 65 coins are better than than others. Some times a lot better. CAC is stickering A and B coins. Although, with my experience, I feel they are stickering just A coins. C coins, although they are 65 coins, are not getting stickered. C coins are very easy to find anywhere. If you use the internet to purchase coins, you know how unreliable pictures can be. It` s almost impossible to tell if a coin is really nice. CAC has helped me greatly in buying coins for my collection.