How arrogant is MS. Laura Sperber in her most recent "Hot Topics" wherein....

[EZ_E]

mommam17, I'm glad to see an affirmative response to the CAC for a change. (thumbs u

[Bruceswar]

deleted!

[mommam17]

Bruceswar-If possible, could you explain what you mean?

[Bruceswar]

Bruceswar-If possible, could you explain what you mean?

 

Sorry I think I have a mixup! Excuse my last statment.

[James_OldeTowne]

90

 

10 more and we can all go to bed.

Weird - were posts zapped from this thread?

[BillJones]

Weird - were posts zapped from this thread?

 

Yes, for sure.

 

The thing went past 100 yesterday.

 

Maybe some of the people deleted their own posts.

[CHABSENTIA]

We can call it DAD since D is the next letter after the C. Since CAC only stickers PCGS and NGC then we can have "DAD" sticker the other TPGs or just verify CAC grades and then have EAE verify all of them.

[EZ_E]

..........and then have EAE verify all of them.

 

In my Rosanne Rosanna-Dana impersonation:

 

What?! You want me, EZ-E, to verify "all of them". And I wasn't even asked. It was just assumed that I'd consent. Like, sure, let's tread on ole Vic for awhile. Who cares anyway?

 

Excuse me? Oooh? You said EAE.

 

"Well, NEVERMIND".

[CHABSENTIA]

EAE is the next logical series. A, B, C, D and E. You have CAC then DAD and then EAE.Of course , you could go alll the way to ZAZ and then start over again with CBC and go all the way to ZBZ. The oppotunities are endless and make about as much sense as the original CAC.

[Houston Investor]

As long as your coins are in one of the holders of the 4 major TPG's (accepted by Teletrade) you are in good shape. Remember, TPG grades are essentially an opinion at a point in time - a potential buyer may not have the same opinion and any wholesale offer may be as low as 50% - 60% of CDN Bid depending on inventory needs and current market conditions (Ideally many retailers do not like to pay more than 50-60% of what they think they can retail their merchandise for). I am not a collector or long term investor, so any coin I buy, I am looking to sell it for more NOW. In addition, there is no guarantee that a coin will not "go bad" in the holder and it is idiotic for buyers to expect TPG's to guarantee coins won't go bad. While I think it is unfortunate some fool overpaid for a MS / PF 70 modern coin that "went bad," these people need to take responsibility and know what they are buying in the first place, especially the risks involved. Ulitmately, coins that "go bad" will have to be cracked out and conserved, etc. - this is one of the realities of numismatics. I have hundreds of slabbed coins and there are probably 2 or 3 per quarter that I need to get reholdered, crack out dip / treat for PVC and then resubmit, or simply keep as raw. In addition there are many coins which are impractical to pay the expense to get into a TPG holder. Just like TPG coins are not for everybody neither is CAC.

 

This should be a positive academic forum, not a place where people are shellacked for expressing their opinion by shills for a particular numismatic firm(s). In particular, I am shocked how individuals have been called names, put down simply for expressing their skepticism or opinion of CAC. When they start calling me names, I know they are losing the debate. As far as the opinions of Laura of Legend, I enjoy reading her material even though I view a lot of it as marketing hype. Legends has a very impressive inventory, and viewing their coins can be a very beneficial educational experience. In the past I have participated in their auctions and got some good buys - it will be interesting when their auction comes back online. However, a word of caution, before putting up big money for expensive numismatic coins, you should have a good idea of what you can liquidate this material for if one day push comes to shove. Get a feel for what similar material is bringing at Teletrade or what a dealer may offer on the bourse.

[CHABSENTIA]

I have no cross to bear either for the application or aboition of CAC.My problem refers to and includes the onlt the view that CAC is needed and is the omnipotent answer to make sure that TPGs are grading correctly.

 

 

There has been one or two posts perhaps more where CAC has made a mistake. So if CAC is here only to make sure that the TPGs do not overgrade/undergrade etc then by the same reasoning there needs to be another service such as CAC to make sure that it doesn't make any mistakes and when it is found that the Company that is making sure that CAC which is making sure that the TPGs are not making a mistake and it makes a mistake then I guess it needs to have somebody looking at it.

 

 

I gave no insults although I might have been facetious by continuing the letters of the alphabet but then a need based solely on that one reason is also ridiculous.

 

As a Buyer who does't intend to sell I am interested in getting the best price period and have no intention at thsi point of Selling.

 

As a Seller who is looking at a quick turnaround as well as a Profit then you need to be not only concerned with whether the CAC adds a further price to the coin "AND" whether or not a prospective Buyer will not buy the coin because of any increase in Price because of it.

 

 

Since I am not concerned with the above then I can walk away and wait for a better ooportunity and then decide.

 

My point was that taking one view is ridiculous because different situations depend on whether one is:

 

1. Buyer

2.Seller

3 Investor

4. Hobbyist

5.Speculator.

 

It also depends on whether each of the above is a Pure definition or a combination of several

 

Lastly it depends on whether one has a Financial interest in CAC itself or a Financial interest in it succeeding .This one is especially disconcerting as it can lead to somebody discussing all the advantages and neglecting any discavantages.

 

 

[CHABSENTIA]

I have no cross to bear either for the application or abolition of CAC.My problem refers to and includes t only the view that CAC is needed and is the omnipotent answer to make sure that TPGs are grading correctly.

 

 

There has been one or two posts perhaps more where CAC has made a mistake. So if CAC is here only to make sure that the TPGs do not overgrade/undergrade etc then by the same reasoning there needs to be another service such as CAC to make sure that it doesn't make any mistakes and when it is found that the Company that is making sure that CAC which is making sure that the TPGs are not making a mistake and it makes a mistake then I guess it needs to have somebody looking at it.

 

 

I gave no insults although I might have been facetious by continuing the letters of the alphabet but then a need based solely on that one reason is also ridiculous.

 

As a Buyer who does't intend to sell I am interested in getting the best price period and have no intention at this point of Selling.

 

As a Seller who is looking at a quick turnaround as well as a Profit then you need to be not only concerned with whether the CAC adds a further price to the coin "AND" whether or not a prospective Buyer will not buy the coin because of any increase in Price because of it.

 

 

Since I am not concerned with the above then I can walk away and wait for a better ooportunity and then decide.

 

My point was that taking one view is ridiculous because different situations depend on whether one is:

 

1. Buyer

2.Seller

3 Investor

4. Hobbyist

5.Speculator.

 

It also depends on whether each of the above is a Pure definition or a combination of several

 

Lastly it depends on whether one has a Financial interest in CAC itself or a Financial interest in it succeeding .This one is especially disconcerting as it can lead to somebody discussing all the advantages and neglecting any discavantages.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

There has been one or two posts perhaps more where CAC has made a mistake. So if CAC is here only to make sure that the TPGs do not overgrade/undergrade etc then by the same reasoning there needs to be another service such as CAC to make sure that it doesn't make any mistakes and when it is found that the Company that is making sure that CAC which is making sure that the TPGs are not making a mistake and it makes a mistake then I guess it needs to have somebody looking at it.

Without quite sorting through this logic, I will simply venture to say that I'd expect the CAC error rate to be about the same as that of the TPGs. Contrary to claims made elsewhere, I just will not believe that the grader(s) at CAC are of significantly higher caliber talent than those already in place at NGC and PCGS.

 

Let's just say the error rate is 15% (which I believe), or an 85% success rate. If these are serial processes - grading by a TPG, then regrading by CAC, one would expect the final error rate to fall to only 2%.

 

This means, there will still be errors for one coin fifty.

[Houston Investor]

Grading is subjective and mainly a matter of opinion in many cases. That there is always an absolute 100% correct answer in every case is something I dispute.

 

I do not believe the CAC grader(s) are better talent (let alone equal) than what is at a major TPG like NGC or for that matter ICG. Ok they put a sticker on a coin that they think its nice which is already graded and slabbed (by NGC or PCGS only) - so what? That makes them better than NGC? Get outta here. Anybody who has been in this hobby any length of time, gone to shows, looked at coins, has developed their own opinion as to what is a nice coin for them and makes the grade. Yet we have people (manipulated insecurity?) who probably will pay a huge premium because a coin has a CAC sticker. This is sad, because they likely will be in for a shock when it comes time to sell. If you think I am joking, take some CAC coins around the bourse and solicit offers. Do any of the dealers offer you a premium above sheet? Facts please, not shill propoganda. Is this a coin that needs a CAC sticker?

[Zoins]

I do not believe the CAC grader(s) are better talent (let alone equal) than what is at a major TPG like NGC or for that matter ICG.

It's not just an issue of talent. A lot of it comes to the standard used by CAC vs. say PCGS, NGC, ICG etc. Let's say the graders all have equal talent, the grades / stickers will be different because the organizations use different standards.

Ok they put a sticker on a coin that they think its nice which is already graded and slabbed (by NGC or PCGS only) - so what? That makes them better than NGC?

The CAC presumably takes more time to grade each coin and has different goals than the top TPGs. The top TPGs need to make sure they provide an acceptable service to their customers, dealers getting coins slabbed. The CAC has different goals which may lead to stricter standards.

Anybody who has been in this hobby any length of time, gone to shows, looked at coins, has developed their own opinion as to what is a nice coin for them and makes the grade. Yet we have people (manipulated insecurity?) who probably will pay a huge premium because a coin has a CAC sticker.

Many coins are purchased sight unseen so even if you have an opinion as to what a nice coin is, you may not have the opportunity to see it.

If you think I am joking, take some CAC coins around the bourse and solicit offers. Do any of the dealers offer you a premium above sheet?

I don't think the CAC is designed for coins that trade at sheet. Presumably those coins would get a premium over sheet even without the sticker.

[James_OldeTowne]

Grading is subjective and mainly a matter of opinion in many cases. That there is always an absolute 100% correct answer in every case is something I dispute.

Parker, you bring up a fantastic point that is so often seeming carefully evaded by dealers and collectors alike. I agree with you that there is no "right or wrong" grade for any given coin. A grade is supposed to be merely an estimate as to a coin's value. So obviously, since every single seller and buyer for a particular coin may value it as he pleases, then there is no singularly correct "grade".

 

And you are correct - NGC has grading standards that are different from those at PCGS. So, how can a single standard (the so-called "CAC" standard) apply to both companies? It defies common sense.

 

Yet we have people (manipulated insecurity?) who probably will pay a huge premium because a coin has a CAC sticker. This is sad, because they likely will be in for a shock when it comes time to sell. If you think I am joking, take some CAC coins around the bourse and solicit offers. Do any of the dealers offer you a premium above sheet?

I would like to see an independent and objective study that can address this as well.

[BillJones]

If anything I would expect the CAC error rate to be virtually zero. PCGS or NGC has already rendered an opinion as to the authenticity, grade and market acceptability of the coin. CAC’s job is to confirm or refuse to confirm that opinion. If CAC can’t do that correctly almost 100% of the time, what good is CAC? Two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

The coin I got had been gone over with file. It was obvious with 10X glass and couple letters showed some scratches that were visible with the naked eye. The coin in question sells for 5 figures. Certainly this was an example where CAC should have not missed this major problem.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

If anything I would expect the CAC error rate to be virtually zero. PCGS or NGC has already rendered an opinion as to the authenticity, grade and market acceptability of the coin. CAC’s job is to confirm or refuse to confirm that opinion. If CAC can’t do that correctly almost 100% of the time, what good is CAC? Two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

The coin I got had been gone over with file. It was obvious with 10X glass and couple letters showed some scratches that were visible with the naked eye. The coin in question sells for 5 figures. Certainly this was an example where CAC should have not missed this major problem.

 

If so, it begs the question: how did the TPG miss such a thing? Certainly makes you wonder...

[CHABSENTIA]

It is all relative ,however, look at it this way. If a Doctor tells you that people have a one in 1000 chance of getting a certain fatal disease or .1% and you get it then it might as well be 100% for you. If you are the one that gets the coin that CAC missed then it is your coin.

 

My point although a little verbose and at times facetious was exactly your point that none of them are going to be perfect for wahtever reason.

[CHABSENTIA]

Coin World did an article on this a while back. Their Conclusion was that CAC appeals mainly to Novices/Newbies who were looking for that extra bit of Security and would probably migrate away from the CAC Sticker as they became more comfortable and confident.

[Tradedollarnut]

Coin World did an article on this a while back. Their Conclusion was that CAC appeals mainly to Novices/Newbies who were looking for that extra bit of Security and would probably migrate away from the CAC Sticker as they became more comfortable and confident.

 

I've been collecting for 40 years. After purchasing a $50,000+ TPG holdered cloroxed coin, I'd hesitate to endorse that view.

[MikeInFL]

I'm not going to go into a lot of details, but I just returned a CAC approved coin because it didn't cut it. The piece was in a PCGS holder, and it had file marks on the obverse. The only thing I could figure was there must of have been some sort of offensive spot on the piece, and someone removed it long ago in that crude way. These did not have the look of adjustment marks, and they were made AFTER the coin was struck.

 

The CAC 2X2 card was still with the piece that stated that the coin was "PQ." I'm afraid I could not agree with that accessment in any way shape or form.

 

My recent experience has led me to the conclusion that you can't take the grading on CAC approved coins for granted.

 

Bill, I have a great deal of respect for your opinion, but this post and several that refer to this situation leave me scratching my head....

 

Is it fair to draw conclusions from one data point?

 

That said, can anyone take anything for granted when it comes to subjective opinion? Why hold CAC to a higher/impossible standard (nearly perfect, to use your own words) unless your goal is missed expectations?

 

Lastly, is it possible that the TPG and CAC were right and you are wrong? For instance, could the "file marks" be simply the coin rubbing against something rather than "there must of have been some sort of offensive spot on the piece, and someone removed it long ago in that crude way"? You have the coin in-hand and would be best to assess this, but do you have any photos of the coin to show us what you're talking about? It just strikes me as odd that file marks would make it past a TPG and CAC, yet are so obvious to you.

 

Regardless, the bottom line to me as a collector is this: In the end the CAC is simply another opinion, and like all opinions it is subjective and has some error/variablity associated with it. If the CAC provides an opinion, and I (or other collectors) find that opinion valuable, how can any third party deny the value of it?

 

Respectfully...Mike

[CHABSENTIA]

I think it is pretty obviuos that you are a supporter of CAC.

 

Still my post said that their article supported the fact that "mainly"

 

Everbody is not going to be paying $50,000.00 for a coin. I would assume that there are instances where paying that much for a coin one could pay for an "expert" opinion? If I was going to purchase what was an expensive piece of Artwork such as a Rembrandt could I pay for an Expert to authenicate it or do we need somebody to be the sole entity that Authenicates each and every piece of Artwork. THe need would also be on the high end. Who would pay to authenicate a $100.00 piece of art worko r even a $500.00 piece of artwork?

 

Mainly is Mainly and while there are always exceptions to the rule where is the need for stickered coins on the low end unless it is for Newbies?

 

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

where is the need for stickered coins on the low end unless it is for Newbies?

 

There is no need for stickers on the low end and nobody ever said there was. Use the service if you feel you need it and if you don't, then more power to you. The only thing that bugs me is when those who feel they don't need it rail against the very concept. In my mind, it's cheap insurance to avoid a potentially bad coin.

 

Doesn't matter so much in a red hot market like this, but when things get tight people are gonna be really really picky...

[MarkFeld]

Who would pay to authenicate a $100.00 piece of art worko r even a $500.00 piece of artwork?

Who would pay to authenticate a $100 coin or even a $500 coin? Apparently many collectors and dealers.

[Doogy]

Who would pay to authenicate a $100.00 piece of art worko r even a $500.00 piece of artwork?

Who would pay to authenticate a $100 coin or even a $500 coin? Apparently many collectors and dealers.

 

yup. i would bet that if the question were posed to both NGC and PCGS as to which they grade more coins of: under $500 or over $500 in number of coins submitted, there would be FAR more of the former than the latter.

[CHABSENTIA]

I wouldn't be one of them.