I Can't believe this is an MS66-grade it

[jackson64]

I was browsing different auctions looking for potential upgrades to my Walker set and stumbled upon this atrocity. I guess you know how I feel....but to be fair I do have issues already with coins that are inferior in 3 grading criteria getting jumped up to high grades because of some color...

 

Anyhow, this should be an MS33 at best...the reverse looks like a complete loss. No detail, flat as a pancake(looks scraped)..that ugly black moldy look I can't stand...and I know silver oxidizes but doesn't "corrode"...but this looks sorta corroded to me..

 

I bet it sells for a grand....two part question, what would you grade this (bb doesn't count) and what's your guess on the sale price?

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=460&Lot_No=778

[jgrinz]

hmmm Where is this atrocity that you so speak ?

 

Must have beat you to the post

 

 

Yukky

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I was browsing different auctions looking for potential upgrades to my Walker set and stumbled upon this atrocity. I guess you know how I feel....but to be fair I do have issues already with coins that are inferior in 3 grading criteria getting jumped up to high grades because of some color...

 

Anyhow, this should be an MS33 at best...the reverse looks like a complete loss. No detail, flat as a pancake(looks scraped)..that ugly black moldy look I can't stand...and I know silver oxidizes but doesn't "corrode"...but this looks sorta corroded to me..

 

I bet it sells for a grand....two part question, what would you grade this (bb doesn't count) and what's your guess on the sale price?

 

If you think it's so unappealing and over-graded so badly, why would you bet it goes for over $1000, when others have regularly been selling for less than $700?

 

Also, while it's possible that the coin is being extremely accurately portrayed in the images, you should know there's an excellent chance that such is not the case.

[physics-fan3.14]

I think the images on this are not exactly the best. In hand, it looks like it probably has killer luster and good eye appeal. While I agree with you that the strike is terrible, again this may be hidden in the picture. Also, I am not sure about Walkers, but I know that for Franklins the S mint has by far the worst average strike. Perhaps this issue is just normally weakly struck? My grade, based solely on the pictures and my lack of knowledge on this issue, would be 65 due solely to the strike. I could see this as a 66, however it is not an upgrade candidate, thats for sure. I have no idea as to value.

[DC Dawg]

I don't know... I think it's fugly!

 

Scott

[TomB]

The images are really non-flattering in that I believe they are making the coin look worse than it is by hiding design details. Overall, I bet the coin is fairly attractive in-hand, in my opinion, and if it has good luster it might really boom.

[MikeKing]

I like this coin. It's undipped original (just my uneducated opinion based on the black toning on the reverse, which I think is characteristic of Walking Liberty halves taken from their original holders...please correct me if I am wrong). Heritages photo may not be bringing out the strike on the reverse, though, it could be as flat as you suggest. The obverse is quite pretty, and it's in an old ngc holder, which I like.

[rons]

I think its awful how she lost her arm below the elbow. Was it an industrial accident? Such a tragedy and to be a 66. Bid high and bid often

[jackson64]

thanks for the opinions..I must say I'm surprised at the support for the grade..beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder. For what it's worth, here is a 1946-S MS66...the second "weakest strike" of the short set

 

This is what I like my 66's to look like, but to each his own

[JCM-Houston]

From reading the description I would guess the photography is at fault. I've bought several from them after calling to get a better description because of dodgy photo's, in each case the verbal description was mcuh closer than the photos.

[Oldtrader3]

I sold some coins through them last year which, when cataloged, had auction pictures that made my coins with good color and luster look DOA. I also have bought coins from them that, in hand, looked much better than their auction pictures.

 

The 1943-S Walkers are notorious for weak strikes on most coins. I did own one a couple years ago (in a birth year set) that was a good strike for issue and very clean. I bought it for a little over $500.

[supertooth]

jackson 64---- If those pictures are accurate, I agree with you. But, in a 66 old holder, you would tend to think that the coin would be better looking.

 

So, one wonders if it isn't just terrible photo skills? However, if I had to bid on the coin----with those pictures---I think that a 64 bid would be my "top" bid. And only then I would hope that the pictures were indeed not accurate.

 

I'm a lover of toning, but, this toner I do not like at all. Again, I wonder if it isn't just the pictures? As Tom B says, maybe in hand a better looking coin it might be. I certainly hope so. Bob [supertooth]

[Tradedollarnut]

I suspect the toning hides some of the strike detail - just like in the other Walker thread a few months ago where someone was blasting a pretty MS66. White walkers are a dime a dozen - a coin should be rewarded for being unusually pretty. Whether it is indeed unusually pretty cannot be determined off a Heritage image.

[MAULEMALL]

I suspect the toning hides some of the strike detail - just like in the other Walker thread a few months ago where someone was blasting a pretty MS66. White walkers are a dime a dozen - a coin should be rewarded for being unusually pretty. Whether it is indeed unusually pretty cannot be determined off a Heritage image.

Blasting?

[jackson64]

is my 1946-S Walker MS66 a dime a dozen?...it took me 2 years to find a 66 with the luster and strike that met my exacting criteria !!!.... the wonderment for me is how the coin I posted maintained such immaculate and original surfaces for over half a century...

 

PS: are you all LOOKING at the reverse..the one winged and featherless eagle?

[BULLY]

I was browsing different auctions looking for potential upgrades to my Walker set and stumbled upon this atrocity. I guess you know how I feel....but to be fair I do have issues already with coins that are inferior in 3 grading criteria getting jumped up to high grades because of some color...

 

Anyhow, this should be an MS33 at best...the reverse looks like a complete loss. No detail, flat as a pancake(looks scraped)..that ugly black moldy look I can't stand...and I know silver oxidizes but doesn't "corrode"...but this looks sorta corroded to me..

 

I bet it sells for a grand....two part question, what would you grade this (bb doesn't count) and what's your guess on the sale price?

 

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=460&Lot_No=778

 

In the words of the great sage, Smokey Robinson, I second that emotion!

 

That is one UNATTRACTIVE COIN. I agree wholeheartedly with Jackson64 here that it is unappealing and just plain inferior. I also agree with Jackson that the coin he shows as an MS66 later in this series is STUNNING. THAT is also what I'd expect an MS66 coin to look like, and what I'd find more desirable, not just because it's blast white, toning can be quite desirable, but because you can actually SEE the coin? Wowza!

 

 

[MarkFeld]

is my 1946-S Walker MS66 a dime a dozen?...it took me 2 years to find a 66 with the luster and strike that met my exacting criteria !!!.... the wonderment for me is how the coin I posted maintained such immaculate and original surfaces for over half a century......

 

Sorry, but from the look of the images I think it's at least as likely that the coin has been dipped as that it's "original".

[Tradedollarnut]

is my 1946-S Walker MS66 a dime a dozen?...it took me 2 years to find a 66 with the luster and strike that met my exacting criteria !!!.... the wonderment for me is how the coin I posted maintained such immaculate and original surfaces for over half a century...

 

White walkers are a dime a dozen. You can make them a little rarer by throwing in strike and luster as an additional consideration.

 

But let me ask you this: if YOU get to throw in strike as a consideration, why can't someone else throw in COLOR. If you get to throw in luster as a consideration, why can't someone else throw in ORIGINALITY?

 

There are multiple factors involved in grading a coin. Focusing on one over all others, especially off an image, is just silly.

 

 

PS: are you all LOOKING at the reverse..the one winged and featherless eagle?

 

Honestly, I couldn't care less about strike as long as it doesn't suck. I might take a point off if it's a little weak. So if the coin started at 67 for color, luster, originality and surfaces, I'd net it to 66. I've always been amused by the concept that strike drives the grade of a coin.

 

[jgrinz]

I've always been amused by the concept that strike drives the grade of a coin.

 

TDN ..

I am sorry that is the credo I live by ... I think that coin is not even close to a 66 - I dont care what kind of color it has. Color in my book does not get a better grade and in fact deters from my view and grade of it. ( Doctoring and such aside )

 

Mr Feld and I have had discussions on my views of "O" mint Morgans ( He going so far as calling my viewpoint unrealistic - What nerve ) - I am sorry I dont care if they are inherently bad and are graded high with partial struck feathering - I will take a Full Breasted Bird over color ANY DAY! ( Same goes with Walking Liberties )

 

Hence I am coining a new acronym for my "o" mint Morgans in my collection - 90 percent of mine are "FBB's" Full Breasted Birds ! ( Can apply to this series of 'bird' too )

 

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

I've always been amused by the concept that strike drives the grade of a coin.

 

TDN ..

I am sorry that is the credo I live by ... I think that coin is not even close to a 66 - I dont care what kind of color it has. Color in my book does not get a better grade and in fact deters from my view and grade of it. ( Doctoring and such aside )

 

Mr Feld and I have had discussions on my views of "O" mint Morgans ( He going so far as calling my viewpoint unrealistic - What nerve ) - I am sorry I dont care if they are inherently bad and are graded high with partial struck feathering - I will take a Full Breasted Bird over color ANY DAY! ( Same goes with Walking Liberties )

 

Hence I am coining a new acronym for my "o" mint Morgans in my collection - 90 percent of mine are "FBB's" Full Breasted Birds ! ( Can apply to this series of 'bird' too )

 

 

 

I'm a big fan of a collector buying what he likes. I'm not a big fan of posting an image on a chatroom and denigrating a coin because of how the image makes it appear or of applying one's own biases [such as strike] in a manner not applied routinely by the grading services. Strike is often net graded, especially when the coin has other attributes that make up for it.

 

You're lucky in a way, cuz you can go out and find coins that you consider are PQ in lower graded holders - because you value strike more than most people. That's great. But please realize that piling on a coin because of its strike may make an awful lot of us shake our head.

 

BTW - if you can actually tell what the strike details on that coin are from that image, more power to ya! !

[bsshog40]

I really don't like this much of a weak strike on a Walker. I don't presume that the Rev has any wear as to the Obv looking quite nice with some good details. This looks like one of the worst weak strikes I've ever seen on one these. I'm not sure of the 66 grade, but if NGC did take weak strikes seriously back when it was slabbed, then the 66 may be justified. JMO

[jackson64]

first off..I did not mean to start a controversy, I did clearly state that I had a bias against toned coins..especially rust colored with smatterings of moldy black...and I can tell that the reverse is barely struck at all..even from this image....anyone wanna buy a a rusted piece of round metal I found?...I swear it's an MS66 Morgan...

[Tradedollarnut]

and I can tell that the reverse is barely struck at all..even from this image

 

I have to disagree. It looks to me like the slab is hazed or the toning is mottled enough to hide details from being viewable.

 

As with the last time a toned walker got slammed here, let's wait for auction lot viewing and get a first hand report from someone who has seen the coin in hand.

[MarkFeld]

and I can tell that the reverse is barely struck at all..even from this image

 

I have to disagree. It looks to me like the slab is hazed or the toning is mottled enough to hide details from being viewable.

 

As with the last time a toned walker got slammed here, let's wait for auction lot viewing and get a first hand report from someone who has seen the coin in hand.

I might be able to arrange that

[jackson64]

fair enough, I would be seriously surprised if the reverse is not exactly as it appears--but I have no problem admitting that I'm wrong or that I don't know everything...if you could arrange it Mark that would be great...of particular interest to me is the seeming lack of a right wing top, a severe featherless flatness on the breast...and as rons pointed out, the left arm appears to disappear at the elbow ( this I figure must be an illusion because I don't even see how a weak strike could account for that)...regardless, I maintain my right to say that I don't like the coloring too much on the obverse, and the reverse looks almost damaged..

[jgrinz]

and I can tell that the reverse is barely struck at all..even from this image

 

I have to disagree. It looks to me like the slab is hazed or the toning is mottled enough to hide details from being viewable.

 

As with the last time a toned walker got slammed here, let's wait for auction lot viewing and get a first hand report from someone who has seen the coin in hand.

I might be able to arrange that

 

heheh yeah Mark will probably buy it and MAKE serious prfit off the coin

[MarkFeld]

first off..I did not mean to start a controversy, I did clearly state that I had a bias against toned coins..especially rust colored with smatterings of moldy black...and I can tell that the reverse is barely struck at all..even from this image....anyone wanna buy a a rusted piece of round metal I found?...I swear it's an MS66 Morgan...

Don't sweat the "controversy" - this has been an interesting and gentlemanly thread....just like every single other one on the NGC forum

 

It has re-illustrated some of the different qualities that collectors like or dislike about coins and there is no "right" or "wrong" answer.

 

I have made a note to view the coin in Long Beach and report back.

[Tradedollarnut]

I maintain my right to say that I don't like the coloring too much on the obverse, and the reverse looks almost damaged.

 

I agree with you on this point!

 

I doubt it physically possible for a Walker [or any coin] to strike up the obverse with as weak a strike on the reverse as you are describing. That's why I suggest we await an in hand report.

 

[jackson64]

Just for kicks I looked it up in my Heritage Catalog I received..although not pictured the description does say " a well struck and deeply toned Premium Gem example of this short-set issue. Ample dusky rose-orange etc etc etc"

 

If the description is accurate then it would appear that the photos HAVE led me to the wrong conclusion...if I were the consignor, I would not be pleased with those pics..but again some coins can never be captured well by a lens it seems..

 

recently I have tried taking some better pics of my Walkers...and it seems if I try to accent the luster--many of the skirt lines and feather detail seem to disappear, but to accent the strike I lose the luster...

 

Here are 2 pics of the same MS67 Walker...and neither capture the true "starburst" luster lines radiating from the center outwards..

[Houston Investor]

The Heritage coin is a piece of low end garbage - it reminds me of something you would get from a mail order ad sight unseen. Technically it may be a 66, but the eye appeal is definitely not there and many would heavily discount such a piece. I am just not a fan of heavily toned coins. However, there are those who seriously collect such toned coins. Don't tell me someone paid a premium for this!

 

Jackson, the 1946-S 50c is definitely a 66 and is very nice for the grade. It is a beautiful Gem BU with outstanding luster, looks as pristine as the day it left the mint. I bet its from a super original roll that had been nicely preserved for years.

Reminds me of several BU Walker rolls a friend of mine who runs a shop in SW Houston showed me a few years back saying "look what walked in the shop today." The luster of the coins was super, a cartwheel type of luster that sparkled as you rotated the coin. Whoever had owned the coins had preserved them nicely over the years.

 

I too like my MS 66's to look nice like that. Sure beats the Heritage one that looks like it was run over by a truck.