Do you consider MS-70 blue toned copper acceptable?

[MikeInFL]

Clearly, the use of MS-70 is common in the market. Furthermore, NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS and ANACS consider it market acceptable. However, I believe collectors feel differently. This post is to try and flush out this issue. So a simple question to those reading this thread:

 

Do you, as a collector, consider MS-70 blue-toned copper acceptable?

[gmarguli]

Are you retarded? Seriously, it's the same subject over and over again.

 

Do you really think you'll get different answers from the same pool of people?

 

Didn't we just have this in another thread yesterday? Hasn't this topic been beat to death a few dozen times already?

 

And no, PCGS & ANACS do not consider it market acceptable to a "lesser extent". They consider it market acceptable to the same extent. All the TPG are aware of it. All the TPG find it OK. All the TPG still slab them. All the TPG will continue to slab them because there are tens of millions of dollars of them (including a sizable number of proof 1/2 and large cents) in their slabs. All the TPG will still slab them because the marketplace still wants then.

[relicsncoins]

I think I would evaluate each coin on it's own merits. If the coin has nice eye appeal to me, then I would consider buying it. If the coin looked cartoonish then I would pass.

 

This coin is one I own. Would it slab? probably not. I like it, for a number of reasons. The color is pretty, and the luster is absolutely blazing. Was it MS-70'd or treated in some other way? Probably. It doesn't hurt that I only paid 12 or 15 bucks for it on Ebay on a bad photo either.

 

JJ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Clearly, the use of MS-70 is common in the market. Furthermore, NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS and ANACS consider it market acceptable. However, I believe collectors feel differently. This post is to try and flush out this issue. So a simple question to those reading this thread:

 

Do you, as a collector, consider MS-70 blue-toned copper acceptable?

Mike, if a contaminated coin requires the use of MS70 to remove the contamination in the opinion of a conservator, then I am willing to accept such a coin. I will say that I'm not generally a big fan of blue copper, and will usually avoid it, but as a realist, I understand that many coins simply must undergo conservation, and sometimes, MS70 is the best choice.

 

So I would offer a qualifed "yes, sometimes" as my answer.

 

Just for the record, I own a couple of blue copper coins that I suspect were changed with MS70, BUT they are examples of varieties that I haven't been able to find with better surface quality at a price I can afford.

 

Edited to add: I also have a few silver coins that were conserved with MS70, but of course, they did not turn blue, and simply look like somewhat bright silver coin.

[MikeInFL]

Are you retarded? Seriously, it's the same subject over and over again.

 

Do you really think you'll get different answers from the same pool of people?

 

Didn't we just have this in another thread yesterday? Hasn't this topic been beat to death a few dozen times already?

 

Perhaps you should read the other thread before asking if I am retarted....

 

Since you seem to have a little problem with reading comprehension, the gist of Bill's thread wasn't the same as mine (Bill was suggesting that all blue copper isn't bad, and my question is quite different), but thanks for missing that point and calling me names. Very mature, and quite par for the course with you, I might add.

 

Why is that? Could it be that you feel guilty and that's why you react the way that you do? ...Mike

 

p.s. thanks to those who answered the question -- I appreciate it.

[gmarguli]

Perhaps you should read the other thread before asking if I am retarted....

 

Are you referring to this thread where you copy/pasted something from ATS that TDN had also copy/pasted 3 posts before? :shrug:

 

 

Since you seem to have a little problem with reading comprehension, the gist of Bill's thread wasn't the same as mine (Bill was suggesting that all blue copper isn't bad, and my question is quite different), but thanks for missing that point and calling me names. Very mature, and quite par for the course with you, I might add.

 

Perhaps you have a problem with your memory. You're new thread topic has been discussed to death on these forums. I think we can all point to the forum members who view MS70 blue as AT or NT or MA or who just don't care. Do we really need yet another hand recount on this subject?

 

 

Why is that? Could it be that you feel guilty and that's why you react the way that you do? ...Mike

 

That must be it. It clearly couldn't be that I'm tired of seeing the same topic repeated over and over again. Please, go bring up some two year old threads and see if we can get some more responses from the forum members that already responded.

 

p.s. thanks to those who answered the question -- I appreciate it.

 

Yes, thanks to all two of you. However, I'm sure the other Michael will wheel himself into this thread and post a rambling comment, so I'll give you credit for 3 responses.

[MarkFeld]

Are you retarded? Seriously, it's the same subject over and over again.

 

Do you really think you'll get different answers from the same pool of people?

 

Didn't we just have this in another thread yesterday? Hasn't this topic been beat to death a few dozen times already?

 

And no, PCGS & ANACS do not consider it market acceptable to a "lesser extent". They consider it market acceptable to the same extent. All the TPG are aware of it. All the TPG find it OK. All the TPG still slab them. All the TPG will continue to slab them because there are tens of millions of dollars of them (including a sizable number of proof 1/2 and large cents) in their slabs. All the TPG will still slab them because the marketplace still wants then.

Greg, if you feel that way, why bother to reply, and at such length?

 

Do you think it will put an end to discussions on the topic?

 

Also, I believe you should have written "beaten", not "beat" to death.

 

Lastly (for now, anyway), do you really feel that TPG's make their slabbing decisions based upon what they think or know "marketplace still wants them" (corrected for your typo of "then"' instead of "them")?

 

[gmarguli]

Greg, if you feel that way, why bother to reply, and at such length?

 

Maybe to bring attention to the fact that this topic has been discussed numerous times and no one has changed opinions. Do you really think MikeinFL is expecting any different opinions or is it just a lame attempt to bring up a topic beat to death (note below) over the past couple years?

 

 

Do you think it will put an end to discussions on the topic?

 

Hopefully, at least until something new comes up.

 

 

Also, I believe you should have written "beaten", not "beat" to death.

 

I believe they are both correct. Since usage of the English language on an informal message board seems so important to you, I respectfully request that you research this topic and see if "beat to death" is acceptable or if "beaten to death" should be used. I eagerly await your findings!! (Note: Two exclamation points to emphasize my passion for these findings, not a grammatical or typographical error.

 

 

Lastly (for now, anyway), do you really feel that TPG's make their slabbing decisions based upon what they think or know "marketplace still wants them" (corrected for your typo of "then"' instead of "them")?

 

Yes. The TPG are businesses and if the marketplace said coins with holes smaller than 2mm were OK, you better believe you'd start seeing them in TPG slabs as market acceptable.

 

And thank you for correcting my typo. I am humbled and embarrassed that I tapped the wrong key and did not notice it during my quick proof read. You should give up coins and work at your true calling - an editor. I suggest you contact Arch and see if he can give you moderator powers so that you can edit posts for these egregious errors. :thumbsup:

[MarkFeld]

Greg, if you feel that way, why bother to reply, and at such length?

 

Maybe to bring attention to the fact that this topic has been discussed numerous times and no one has changed opinions. Do you really think MikeinFL is expecting any different opinions or is it just a lame attempt to bring up a topic beat to death (note below) over the past couple years?

Since it's been discussed numerous times, why would anyone need that fact brought to their attention by you? If it isn't already obvious to them by now, what good can your post do?

 

 

[bsshog40]

I've never used MS70 on anything, so I'm not getting into this one!

[WinstonWare]

I do have one question on this topic; can anyone demonstrate a coin that has been treated with MS70 and “turned” in the holder? I keep hearing that but I haven’t seen an example of it…

[MarkFeld]

I do have one question on this topic; can anyone demonstrate a coin that has been treated with MS70 and “turned” in the holder? I keep hearing that but I haven’t seen an example of it…

I don't know the answer to your question, but out of curiosity, would that matter with respect to whether you find it "acceptable"?

[WinstonWare]

I do have one question on this topic; can anyone demonstrate a coin that has been treated with MS70 and “turned” in the holder? I keep hearing that but I haven’t seen an example of it…

I don't know the answer to your question, but out of curiosity, would that matter with respect to whether you find it "acceptable"?

I wouldn’t support it but it would make the act of toning the coins with the application of MS70 less troubling if the coins were stable IMHO.

[MarkFeld]

I do have one question on this topic; can anyone demonstrate a coin that has been treated with MS70 and “turned” in the holder? I keep hearing that but I haven’t seen an example of it…

I don't know the answer to your question, but out of curiosity, would that matter with respect to whether you find it "acceptable"?

I wouldn’t support it but it would make the act of toning the coins with the application of MS70 less troubling if the coins were stable IMHO.

I had a feeling you were going to say that. Certain types of artificial toning are supposedly quite stable, but that doesn't make them less artificial or objectionable.

 

Still, I think I understand your thinking on the subject - thanks.

[MikeInFL]

Perhaps you should read the other thread before asking if I am retarted....

 

Are you referring to this thread where you copy/pasted something from ATS that TDN had also copy/pasted 3 posts before? :shrug:

 

No, I was referring to this thread: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2162151&page=1#Post2162151

 

But thank you for pointing out my duplicate post.

 

Since you seem to have a little problem with reading comprehension, the gist of Bill's thread wasn't the same as mine (Bill was suggesting that all blue copper isn't bad, and my question is quite different), but thanks for missing that point and calling me names. Very mature, and quite par for the course with you, I might add.

 

Perhaps you have a problem with your memory. You're new thread topic has been discussed to death on these forums. I think we can all point to the forum members who view MS70 blue as AT or NT or MA or who just don't care. Do we really need yet another hand recount on this subject?

 

I thought we did (and I would point out that there are a great number of newer members of this forum who might never have seen the original threads on this topic). If you don't agree, please consider just not responding, or put me back on your ignore list. In my opinion, both would be more appropriate than the childish response of calling me names (which says a lot), but really you are free to do what you wish.

 

(p.s. this person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point thinks you meant to say "your" not "you're".)

 

Why is that? Could it be that you feel guilty and that's why you react the way that you do? ...Mike

 

That must be it. It clearly couldn't be that I'm tired of seeing the same topic repeated over and over again. Please, go bring up some two year old threads and see if we can get some more responses from the forum members that already responded.

 

That's funny, you don't respond the same way to the guess the grade threads, or the latest mint release threads, or practically any other thread on this forum. Again, why do you think this is Greg? Could it be a little sore spot for you?

 

 

[Arizonadesertrat]

I would not buy a copper coin that I thought was artificially toned, period (and the color is irrelevant). We are in the midst of a bull market, and I think that anyone that buys a copper that looks like it has been colored by MS-70 will regret this when the market cools off and standards tighten up.

[IGWT]

I might buy one as a souvenir of our cordial and educational forum discussions.

[gmarguli]

That's funny, you don't respond the same way to the guess the grade threads, or the latest mint release threads, or practically any other thread on this forum. Again, why do you think this is Greg? Could it be a little sore spot for you?

 

I was unaware of anyone bringing up guess the grade threads over and over and over again for the exact same coins. The same is true for Mint products. Perhaps I missed their incessant regurgitation? :shrug: However, I can assure you that when it comes to threads like this one you started, my annoyance is 100% related to the fact that you like to beat this topic to death. This is a 2+ year old topic that you like to revisit with some frequency. It is not a sore spot for me. I swear! MS70 has been very good to me over the years. I have no reason to have the discussions about it be a sore spot. I'm open with my knowledge.

 

If that doesn't sway you, then let me stress how sincere I truly am when I make this statement - I don't give a mess what your or anyone else's opinion is regarding the use of MS70 on coins. Honestly, I don't care. Not at all. None whatsoever. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Your opinion and everyone else's is meaningless to me. Seriously. Why would I care? Why should I care?

[lkenefic]

Clearly, the use of MS-70 is common in the market. Furthermore, NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS and ANACS consider it market acceptable. However, I believe collectors feel differently. This post is to try and flush out this issue. So a simple question to those reading this thread:

 

Do you, as a collector, consider MS-70 blue-toned copper acceptable?

 

As a collector, I don't find this sort of toning to be acceptable and I try to avoid it. The only coins that this has been an issue for me were a few toned PF IHCs over which I was vacillating. Even though all of these pieces were slabbed by various TPGs, I passed.

 

I suppose if I was a dealer responding to this post my answer could be different depending upon how much revenue I stood to loose by giving up my MS70 experiments.

[realone]

Mike,

not only should this thread be brought up for all the newbees in order to educate them, but it needs to come out constantly so will all talk about it and maybe sway some lost soles who still believe doctoring coins is good for the hobby. Every time this subject is broached I personally learn something new, every time.

Lastly it is an incredibly important topic and something we have to be aware of every single day we are collecting, that is if you want to own naturally toned coins with original surfaces that haven't been messed with, I know I do.

[truthteller]

I'm sure the TPGs can say retroactively if MS70'd coins are doctored. Whatever is in the best interest of their company or the consumer. Those who make a lot of blue IHC and Lincolns should start saving their nickels and dimes just in case the TPG comes after them.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MikeInFL]

That's funny, you don't respond the same way to the guess the grade threads, or the latest mint release threads, or practically any other thread on this forum. Again, why do you think this is Greg? Could it be a little sore spot for you?

 

I was unaware of anyone bringing up guess the grade threads over and over and over again for the exact same coins. The same is true for Mint products. Perhaps I missed their incessant regurgitation? :shrug: However, I can assure you that when it comes to threads like this one you started, my annoyance is 100% related to the fact that you like to beat this topic to death. This is a 2+ year old topic that you like to revisit with some frequency. It is not a sore spot for me. I swear! MS70 has been very good to me over the years. I have no reason to have the discussions about it be a sore spot. I'm open with my knowledge.

 

First off, I don't believe you when you say it is 100% related to my beating this topic to death. There are lots of people beating topics to death on this forum (and other forums), yet you seem to save those type of choice words for me and this topic. You can deny it all you want, but your actions speak louder than your denials.

 

Secondly, I dispute that you are open with your knowledge. While it is true that you have shared a few examples with the forum -- my recollection is you responded to threads after it was already shown. Am I wrong? If so, kindly post where you said anything about this topic before it being brough to light by others a few years ago?

 

Even more to the point, did you make people aware of your MS 70ed coins before selling them to collectors or dealers? So just how "open" are you?

 

If that doesn't sway you, then let me stress how sincere I truly am when I make this statement - I don't give a mess what your or anyone else's opinion is regarding the use of MS70 on coins. Honestly, I don't care. Not at all. None whatsoever. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Your opinion and everyone else's is meaningless to me. Seriously. Why would I care? Why should I care?

 

If that's true, then why would you care if I beat the topic to death? Why would you call me a person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point for trying to educate fellow collectors on a topic they may not have seen it the past? Why would you even open the thread?

 

Rhetorical questions aside, if I had to guess you care because people's opinion of you has changed. People, all people, care about what others think of them. Deny it all you want. Then again, perhaps you're being honest and are just anti-social...

 

That said, I could think of a few people whose opinion you might care about if a slightly different interpretation of Title 18 Section 331 of the U.S. Code were to be taken by key individuals in the judicial system. You know, kind of like would happen if certain very influential people were to be taken advantage of and decide to do something about it.

 

 

[michael]

I'm sure the TPGs can say retroactively if MS70'd coins are doctored. Whatever is in the best interest of their company or the consumer. Those who make a lot of blue IHC and Lincolns should start saving their nickels and dimes just in case the TPG comes after them.

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u

[michael]

That's funny, you don't respond the same way to the guess the grade threads, or the latest mint release threads, or practically any other thread on this forum. Again, why do you think this is Greg? Could it be a little sore spot for you?

 

I was unaware of anyone bringing up guess the grade threads over and over and over again for the exact same coins. The same is true for Mint products. Perhaps I missed their incessant regurgitation? :shrug: However, I can assure you that when it comes to threads like this one you started, my annoyance is 100% related to the fact that you like to beat this topic to death. This is a 2+ year old topic that you like to revisit with some frequency. It is not a sore spot for me. I swear! MS70 has been very good to me over the years. I have no reason to have the discussions about it be a sore spot. I'm open with my knowledge.

 

First off, I don't believe you when you say it is 100% related to my beating this topic to death. There are lots of people beating topics to death on this forum (and other forums), yet you seem to save those type of choice words for me and this topic. You can deny it all you want, but your actions speak louder than your denials.

 

Secondly, I dispute that you are open with your knowledge. While it is true that you have shared a few examples with the forum -- my recollection is you responded to threads after it was already shown. Am I wrong? If so, kindly post where you said anything about this topic before it being brough to light by others a few years ago?

 

Even more to the point, did you make people aware of your MS 70ed coins before selling them to collectors or dealers? So just how "open" are you?

 

If that doesn't sway you, then let me stress how sincere I truly am when I make this statement - I don't give a mess what your or anyone else's opinion is regarding the use of MS70 on coins. Honestly, I don't care. Not at all. None whatsoever. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Your opinion and everyone else's is meaningless to me. Seriously. Why would I care? Why should I care?

 

If that's true, then why would you care if I beat the topic to death? Why would you call me a person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point for trying to educate fellow collectors on a topic they may not have seen it the past? Why would you even open the thread?

 

Rhetorical questions aside, if I had to guess you care because people's opinion of you has changed. People, all people, care about what others think of them. Deny it all you want. Then again, perhaps you're being honest and are just anti-social...

 

That said, I could think of a few people whose opinion you might care about if a slightly different interpretation of Title 18 Section 331 of the U.S. Code were to be taken by key individuals in the judicial system. You know, kind of like would happen if certain very influential people were to be taken advantage of and decide to do something about it.

 

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u

 

 

 

you owe lots of people refunds and i think this will come back to haunt you in future years......................... karma and all that

[michael]

That's funny, you don't respond the same way to the guess the grade threads, or the latest mint release threads, or practically any other thread on this forum. Again, why do you think this is Greg? Could it be a little sore spot for you?

 

I was unaware of anyone bringing up guess the grade threads over and over and over again for the exact same coins. The same is true for Mint products. Perhaps I missed their incessant regurgitation? :shrug: However, I can assure you that when it comes to threads like this one you started, my annoyance is 100% related to the fact that you like to beat this topic to death. This is a 2+ year old topic that you like to revisit with some frequency. It is not a sore spot for me. I swear! MS70 has been very good to me over the years. I have no reason to have the discussions about it be a sore spot. I'm open with my knowledge.

 

First off, I don't believe you when you say it is 100% related to my beating this topic to death. There are lots of people beating topics to death on this forum (and other forums), yet you seem to save those type of choice words for me and this topic. You can deny it all you want, but your actions speak louder than your denials.

 

Secondly, I dispute that you are open with your knowledge. While it is true that you have shared a few examples with the forum -- my recollection is you responded to threads after it was already shown. Am I wrong? If so, kindly post where you said anything about this topic before it being brough to light by others a few years ago?

 

Even more to the point, did you make people aware of your MS 70ed coins before selling them to collectors or dealers? So just how "open" are you?

 

If that doesn't sway you, then let me stress how sincere I truly am when I make this statement - I don't give a mess what your or anyone else's opinion is regarding the use of MS70 on coins. Honestly, I don't care. Not at all. None whatsoever. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Your opinion and everyone else's is meaningless to me. Seriously. Why would I care? Why should I care?

 

If that's true, then why would you care if I beat the topic to death? Why would you call me a person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point for trying to educate fellow collectors on a topic they may not have seen it the past? Why would you even open the thread?

 

Rhetorical questions aside, if I had to guess you care because people's opinion of you has changed. People, all people, care about what others think of them. Deny it all you want. Then again, perhaps you're being honest and are just anti-social...

 

That said, I could think of a few people whose opinion you might care about if a slightly different interpretation of Title 18 Section 331 of the U.S. Code were to be taken by key individuals in the judicial system. You know, kind of like would happen if certain very influential people were to be taken advantage of and decide to do something about it.

 

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u

 

 

 

you reap what you sow and this will be proven in the future

[gmarguli]

First off, I don't believe you when you say it is 100% related to my beating this topic to death. There are lots of people beating topics to death on this forum (and other forums), yet you seem to save those type of choice words for me and this topic.

 

That's because you seem to relish bringing up this topic. It might be fair to say you post with malice.

 

 

Secondly, I dispute that you are open with your knowledge. While it is true that you have shared a few examples with the forum -- my recollection is you responded to threads after it was already shown. Am I wrong? If so, kindly post where you said anything about this topic before it being brough to light by others a few years ago?

 

Here you go. Examples can also be found ATS before I was banned.

 

 

Even more to the point, did you make people aware of your MS 70ed coins before selling them to collectors or dealers? So just how "open" are you?

 

Yes. For example, I showed some coins to JamminJ and he was interested in a couple and asked me how they toned blue. I outright told him.

 

Braddick asked me about the blue toning on another coin and I outright told him how it happened.

 

TruthTeller asked me about some and I told him. However, he wasn't a potential buyer. I think he was just looking for more techniques for himself. He shared a few of his ways with me at the same time, but I don't go that far. I limit myself to common coin cleaners, not an elaborate coin doctors workshop.

 

Sorry, but it was never hidden.

[truthteller]

Mike,

 

Indeed Title 18 will be invoked when the TPGs go after the blue copper scheisters. Rumor has it a couple of folks on this forum have targets on their backs. This is going to get really interesting.

 

Watch for more lashing out as the ship starts to sink.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MikeInFL]

Malice is not my intent when I post these things. Education is -- my own and others'. I'm sorry if you mistake it for malice.

 

I stand corrected on your posting this info before. I hadn't seen that post, and it predated my joining this forum. Thank you for setting me straight.

 

That said, it is ludicrous to suggest that you inform all buyers of what you've done to the coins before you sell them, and we both know it, which was my point.

[truthteller]

 

That said, it is ludicrous to suggest that you inform all buyers of what you've done to the coins before you sell them, and we both know it, which was my point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MarkFeld]

Mike,

 

Indeed Title 18 will be invoked when the TPGs go after the blue copper scheisters. Rumor has it a couple of folks on this forum have targets on their backs. This is going to get really interesting.

 

Watch for more lashing out as the ship starts to sink.

 

 

 

TRUTH

Truth, the major grading companies appear to have condoned/ deemed blue/MS70'd copper "market acceptable" by holdering it, both before AND after these public discussions surfaced. Consequently, if you, like I, believe that using MS70 to change the color of copper coins amounts to coin doctoring, then they are largely at fault, as well. And, I don't see how they can now turn around and punish those whose actions they have at least tacitly approved of for so long.