Should collectors to be “blue” about their blue Proof Indian cents?

[bajablu]

Well the big thing is that the seller had no idea and said it was original. At $2500+ I want to know if the coins been messed with. If it hasnt damaged the coin, I dont care, but I want to know. And I agree alot of the toned ones may have been messed with, thats why I stick to ones that have minimul toning and easily identifiable original surfaces. Heres what I bais this off of...

 

 

MS70:

 

 

Original:

 

 

Major difference. I dont care if a coin has been messed with, just aslong as people that are potential buyers made aware.

 

If I was buying a 70 Hemi Cuda because it was original and matching numbers, Id want to know if all the numbers matched. i.e: engine, tranny, metal. Thats only right.

[Connecticoin]

I love this

 

 

You're supposed to know the end result by keeping the experimental pieces to find out what happens over time. I know because I have all my experiments. :thumbsup:

 

TRUTH

 

Can you post a link to the results of your experiements? I would be interested in seeing them.

[truthteller]

PM sent

 

 

TRUTH

[TomB]

Bajablu, I know the history of the 1914 you almost kept and I know how you learned about its history, too; I also know where the 1912 came from, all of which makes me feel somewhat like I am "cheating" on this post. However, although the 1914 was treated with MS70, I don't know that the 1912 is completely original, either, since it appears from the single set of images provided that the coin might have had a spot or two of carbonized debris removed from its surfaces.

[MarkFeld]

Below, I have quoted/brought to the top an exchange between Truth and Greg M.

 

Included in that exchange is Truth's denial from 2 days ago regarding Greg's allegation that he has doctored coins and gotten them (his "later work") into TPG holders (edited to add: and parted with them - presumably through sales, as opposed to gifts). I have done this because poster Pharmer of the PCGS forum started a thread see here in which, in speaking about Truth (and Greg) stated: " ...Just that they are hurling accusations at each other, neither is denying, and they are actually bragging. I can't believe we are finally finding out. I've waited over three years for this."

 

(Edited to add: If Pharmer's really "been waiting over three years for this" he should visit here more often and/or get help with his reading comprehension. There was nothing particularly new revealed in these recent exchanges between Truth and Greg).

 

I interpreted Truth's comment as 1) not bragging and 2) as a denial, but will leave it to others to decide. I also hope Truth will chime in.

 

I am also of the opinion, based on the limited interactions I have had with him, as well as his many interactions with others, that Pharmer enjoys taking cheap shots and stirring things up (then sitting back and enjoying the action), without a factual foundation. And that he doesn't mind exaggerating and/or distorting the facts, while at the same time, ignoring information and/or facts that hurt his case. I hope that those who have been pointed to this thread will actually read what was written, before jumping to conclusions.

 

 

You're supposed to know the end result by keeping the experimental pieces to find out what happens over time. I know because I have all my experiments. :thumbsup:

 

Yes, but who has your regular production run coins? It's clear that you're good enough to get all your doctored coins into TPG slabs, so your experiments must have been a success. I'm glad you kept your early work for your own personal admiration, but you clearly haven't kept your later work after you perfected your experiments.

 

And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you shouldn't share your work with the world. You're very good at putting color onto white commemoratives.

 

 

but you clearly haven't kept your later work after you perfected your experiments.

 

 

Simple to say, I can happily deny this. :thumbsup:

 

 

Lashing out is a psycological sign of having a guilt complex. :think: I think the forum members understand why.

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

Anyone who has read any of tt's posts over the past couple of years Knows all they need to know as to tt's endevers... I am still waiting for the Book that Biddles tt is supposed to have written on all those doctored coins.

 

Heres a post that about sums up the collective thoughts on tt

saintguru

neither saint nor guru am I

 

Posts: 32073

Joined: Aug 2004

Tuesday January 29, 2008 1:07 PM

 

 

 

I'd smack the out of Mr. TRUTH if I ever found out who he was.

 

I have an axe to grind on his head. He's the ultimate keyboard cowboy who loves to hurl lies anonymously.

 

He's a BIDDLEBOY.

 

tt has never had any use for the truth.

[ksteelheader]

What is tt gonna do now that biddles is shut down??

[MAULEMALL]

What is tt gonna do now that biddles is shut down??

Probably more "Research" on Commems And Copper.

[gmarguli]

What is tt gonna do now that biddles is shut down??

Probably more "Research" on Commems And Copper.

 

How much research can one man do? He's got enough education to have a PhD in ATing.

[MikeInFL]

A few points to clear up. It is my undestanding that:

 

Truthteller is not Biddles.

Truthteller hasn't sold his experimental coins for profit.

 

If anyone has any evidence to support their accusations to the contrary, please post them, otherwise stop lying, distorting the truth, and/or levying unsubstantiated accusations. Thank you...Mike

[MAULEMALL]

A few points to clear up. It is my undestanding that:

 

Truthteller is not Biddles.

Truthteller doesn't sell his experimental coins for profit.

 

If anyone has any evidence to support their accusations to the contrary, please post them, otherwise stop lying and/or distorting the truth. Thank you...Mike

Do you have any proof he doesn't..

 

 

He is obviously a self proclaimed coin doctor.

 

Can you give any proof that he hasn't made any money off of them.

 

With his obvious inability to tell the truth why should he be trusted..

It's been stated that he knew all about the blue copper long before anything was ever brought out here and ATS and yet said nothing about it.

 

 

Just because he is within a certain circle of trust doesn't mean a thing to me.

 

[Connecticoin]

I may be mistaken, but IIRC, "TRUTHTELLER" on this board is not the "truth" character who posted on the Biddle site.

[MAULEMALL]

I may be mistaken, but IIRC, "TRUTHTELLER" on this board is not the "truth" character who posted on the Biddle site.

Actually tt was "quoted" quite a bit on biddles site.

 

At least he was when I was over there a couple months ago.

 

 

 

[MikeInFL]

A few points to clear up. It is my undestanding that:

 

Truthteller is not Biddles.

Truthteller doesn't sell his experimental coins for profit.

 

If anyone has any evidence to support their accusations to the contrary, please post them, otherwise stop lying and/or distorting the truth. Thank you...Mike

Do you have any proof he doesn't..

 

 

He is obviously a self proclaimed coin doctor.

 

Can you give any proof that he hasn't made any money off of them.

 

With his obvious inability to tell the truth why should he be trusted..

It's been stated that he knew all about the blue copper long before anything was ever brought out here and ATS and yet said nothing about it.

 

 

Just because he is within a certain circle of trust doesn't mean a thing to me.

 

I am not the one alledging these things, am I? The burden of truth is on the accusers, Patrick. Let me give you a little example....

 

If I were to call you a child molester, should the burden of proof be on you to clear your good name, or on me because I'm the one who accused you of it?

 

In our society, and for good reason, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

 

So my comment to you or anyone else accusing Truth of things -- and the comment would be the same if we were talking about you or Greg or Mark or anyone -- put up or shut up...Mike

 

p.s. I agree, I don't trust anyone inside any "circle of trust" (whatever that means) -- I judge and trust people by their words and actions, just like I suspect you do, which is why I'm rather suprised that you would say what you have (other than to defend your friend Greg, which I find admirable if a bit misguided).

[IrishMike]

pharmer is too chicken bleep to come over here and post. He reads the board here then whines like a six year old ATS. I don't know of a single sole over there that pays him much heed.

[MAULEMALL]

A few points to clear up. It is my undestanding that:

 

Truthteller is not Biddles.

Truthteller doesn't sell his experimental coins for profit.

 

If anyone has any evidence to support their accusations to the contrary, please post them, otherwise stop lying and/or distorting the truth. Thank you...Mike

Do you have any proof he doesn't..

 

 

He is obviously a self proclaimed coin doctor.

 

Can you give any proof that he hasn't made any money off of them.

 

With his obvious inability to tell the truth why should he be trusted..

It's been stated that he knew all about the blue copper long before anything was ever brought out here and ATS and yet said nothing about it.

 

 

Just because he is within a certain circle of trust doesn't mean a thing to me.

 

I am not the one alledging these things, am I? The burden of truth is on the accusers, Patrick. Let me give you a little example....

 

If I were to call you a child molester, should the burden of proof be on you to clear your good name, or on me because I'm the one who accused you of it?

 

In our society, and for good reason, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

 

So my comment to you or anyone else accusing Truth of things -- and the comment would be the same if we were talking about you or Greg or Mark or anyone -- put up or shut up...Mike

 

p.s. I agree, I don't trust anyone inside any "circle of trust" (whatever that means) -- I judge and trust people by their words and actions, just like I suspect you do, which is why I'm rather suprised that you would say what you have (other than to defend your friend Greg, which I find admirable if a bit misguided).

No more missguided than someone who comes to the defense of a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper..

 

And I am sure you didn't mean to infer that I was a child molester and I am sure you want to make that clear.

[SkyMan]

For those of us that are ignorant, what is the whole thing with "Biddles"? Is it a person, the website of a person or something else entirely? Thanks. I take it from context that it has something to do with AT'ing.

[MikeInFL]

A few points to clear up. It is my undestanding that:

 

Truthteller is not Biddles.

Truthteller doesn't sell his experimental coins for profit.

 

If anyone has any evidence to support their accusations to the contrary, please post them, otherwise stop lying and/or distorting the truth. Thank you...Mike

Do you have any proof he doesn't..

 

 

He is obviously a self proclaimed coin doctor.

 

Can you give any proof that he hasn't made any money off of them.

 

With his obvious inability to tell the truth why should he be trusted..

It's been stated that he knew all about the blue copper long before anything was ever brought out here and ATS and yet said nothing about it.

 

 

Just because he is within a certain circle of trust doesn't mean a thing to me.

 

I am not the one alledging these things, am I? The burden of truth is on the accusers, Patrick. Let me give you a little example....

 

If I were to call you a child molester, should the burden of proof be on you to clear your good name, or on me because I'm the one who accused you of it?

 

In our society, and for good reason, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

 

So my comment to you or anyone else accusing Truth of things -- and the comment would be the same if we were talking about you or Greg or Mark or anyone -- put up or shut up...Mike

 

p.s. I agree, I don't trust anyone inside any "circle of trust" (whatever that means) -- I judge and trust people by their words and actions, just like I suspect you do, which is why I'm rather suprised that you would say what you have (other than to defend your friend Greg, which I find admirable if a bit misguided).

No more missguided than someone who comes to the defense of a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper..

 

And I am sure you didn't mean to infer that I was a child molester and I am sure you want to make that clear.

 

And that has to do with the burden of proof exactly how?

[MAULEMALL]

For those of us that are ignorant, what is the whole thing with "Biddles"? Is it a person, the website of a person or something else entirely? Thanks. I take it from context that it has something to do with AT'ing.

You have to scroll down toi the bottom of the page but It appears that biddles was visited by someone with a piece of paper.

[MikeInFL]

For those of us that are ignorant, what is the whole thing with "Biddles"? Is it a person, the website of a person or something else entirely? Thanks. I take it from context that it has something to do with AT'ing.

 

http://www.biddlesbank.com/

 

IIRC, the website was started after Biddles was banned by PCGS.

 

Interestingly enough, Truthteller predated Biddles at PCGS, and is still a member IIRC....Mike

[MAULEMALL]

A few points to clear up. It is my undestanding that:

 

Truthteller is not Biddles.

Truthteller doesn't sell his experimental coins for profit.

 

If anyone has any evidence to support their accusations to the contrary, please post them, otherwise stop lying and/or distorting the truth. Thank you...Mike

Do you have any proof he doesn't..

 

 

He is obviously a self proclaimed coin doctor.

 

Can you give any proof that he hasn't made any money off of them.

 

With his obvious inability to tell the truth why should he be trusted..

It's been stated that he knew all about the blue copper long before anything was ever brought out here and ATS and yet said nothing about it.

 

 

Just because he is within a certain circle of trust doesn't mean a thing to me.

 

 

 

p.s. I agree, I don't trust anyone inside any "circle of trust" (whatever that means) -- I judge and trust people by their words and actions, just like I suspect you do, which is why I'm rather suprised that you would say what you have (other than to defend your friend Greg, which I find admirable if a bit misguided).

No more missguided than someone who comes to the defense of a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper..

 

And I am sure you didn't mean to infer that I was a child molester and I am sure you want to make that clear.

 

And that has to do with the burden of proof exactly how?

I was responding to your statement of my defense of Greg.

 

 

and again,

I am sure you didn't mean to infer that I was a child molester and I am sure you want to make that clear.

[MikeInFL]

My words speak for themselves, Patrick. You can infer whatever you want, but you might take note of my use of the word "if".

 

Although I think I get what you were saying, I'm not sure who you are referring to with your comment "a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper", so kindly identify the individual you are referring to if you would like me to respond.

 

That said, do you agree or disagree that the burden of proof should be on the accuser, which was the point of my post, and one you conveniently ignored?

 

Thank you...Mike

[MarkFeld]

For those who might need help finding and/or seeing Truth's denial of Greg's accusation:

 

Greg M.: <>

 

Truth: <>

 

That sure looks like a denial to me. But perhaps someone got confused by Truth's use of the word "deny" when he posted his denial.

 

 

 

[gmarguli]

For those who might need help finding and/or seeing Truth's denial of Greg's accusation:

 

Greg M.: <>

 

Truth: <>

 

That sure looks like a denial to me. But perhaps someone got confused by Truth's use of the word "deny" when he posted his denial.

 

All I see is his confession to being a coin doctor. :shrug:

[MAULEMALL]

My words speak for themselves, Patrick,

 

Although I think I get what you were saying, I'm not sure who you are referring to with your comment "a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper", so kindly identify the individual you are referring to if you would like me to respond.

 

 

 

Thank you...Mike

I believe that would be Mark....

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

For those who might need help finding and/or seeing Truth's denial of Greg's accusation:

 

Greg M.: <>

 

Truth: <>

 

That sure looks like a denial to me. But perhaps someone got confused by Truth's use of the word "deny" when he posted his denial.

 

All I see is his confession to being a coin doctor. :shrug:

Where is tt.. I am sure he can clear all this up.

[MAULEMALL]

My words speak for themselves, Patrick,

 

Although I think I get what you were saying, I'm not sure who you are referring to with your comment "a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper", so kindly identify the individual you are referring to if you would like me to respond.

 

 

 

Thank you...Mike

I believe that would be Mark....

 

So Mike in fla... are you saying you didn't know?

[MAULEMALL]

My words speak for themselves, Patrick,

 

Although I think I get what you were saying, I'm not sure who you are referring to with your comment "a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper", so kindly identify the individual you are referring to if you would like me to respond.

 

 

 

Thank you...Mike

I believe that would be Mark....

 

So Mike in fla... are you saying you didn't know?

Helllllooooooo

[MikeInFL]

My words speak for themselves, Patrick,

 

Although I think I get what you were saying, I'm not sure who you are referring to with your comment "a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper", so kindly identify the individual you are referring to if you would like me to respond.

 

 

 

Thank you...Mike

I believe that would be Mark....

 

 

Assuming you mean Mr. Feld, then I'm not sure where I have defended Mark and his handling of that situation, and I would request that you show me where I have.

 

That said/asked, here's my thoughts on that topic, based on my incomplete understanding of that situation:

 

Mark sold one coin that he suspected was AT, it was taken on consigment, and he earned 10% or less on that deal. So I would disupute your use of the term "good bit of money", but I do recongize that "a good bit" is rather subjective.

 

Incidentally, and since that time, I have not seen another example of blue-toned copper in his inventory, and it is something that I do watch rather closely.

 

My own personal opinion and how I would have handled the situation are different -- I would have likely declined the consignment, but I also think I understand and can relate to the rationale as to why he did.

 

Furthermore, my recollection is that he did disclose what he knew of the coin to the prospective buyer, and that's something that our favorite coin doctor around here doesn't do except in a few instances where he was asked directly.

 

So if I did defend him -- and I honestly don't think that I have which is why I asked you to post where I did -- it is for the above reasons.

 

I hope that makes things more clear. Now if you would be kind enough to answer my question, repeated yet again:

 

Do you agree that the burden of proof should be on the accuser?

 

Thanks in advance for answering the question....Mike

[MAULEMALL]

My words speak for themselves, Patrick,

 

Although I think I get what you were saying, I'm not sure who you are referring to with your comment "a person who starts a riot about blue coins and then makes a pretty good bit of coin off of the same blue copper", so kindly identify the individual you are referring to if you would like me to respond.

 

 

 

Thank you...Mike

I believe that would be Mark....

 

 

Assuming you mean Mr. Feld, then I'm not sure where I have defended Mark and his handling of that situation, and I would request that you show me where I have.

 

That said/asked, here's my thoughts on that topic, based on my incomplete understanding of that situation:

 

Mark sold one coin that he suspected was AT, it was taken on consigment, and he earned 10% or less on that deal. So I would disupute your use of the term "good bit of money", but I do recongize that "a good bit" is rather subjective.

 

Incidentally, and since that time, I have not seen another example of blue-toned copper in his inventory, and it is something that I do watch rather closely.

 

My own personal opinion and how I would have handled the situation are different, -- I would have likely declined the consignment, but I also think I understand and can relate to the rationale as to why he did.

 

Furthermore, my recollection is that he did disclose what he knew of the coin to the prospective buyer, and that's something that our favorite coin doctor around here doesn't do except in a few instances where he was asked directly.

 

So if I did defend him, and I honestly don't think that I have which is why I asked you to post where I did, it is for the above reasons.

 

I hope that makes things more clear. Now if you would be kind enough to answer my question, repeated for a third time:

 

Do you agree that If I weren't so much of a MO I would get an answer

 

Thanks in advance for answering the question....Mike

Well Maybe some of the others who had Mark sell some of their coins can Chime on in..

 

Do you agree that the burden of proof should be on the accuser? yes

 

And since tt has repeatedly confirmed he was a coin doctor I accept your appoligy.

 

 

now here is another question... How hypocritical was it for Mark to sell the coins he was railing against?