Should collectors to be “blue” about their blue Proof Indian cents?

[BillJones]

A few weeks ago I noted a thread where it was claimed that Proof Indian cents with blue toning were all AT despite the fact that the coins had been authenticated by the leading certification services. I thought that this assertion was a bit sweeping, but since I’m far from being an authority on Proof copper, I made no comment.

 

Then a couple of weeks ago I read in one Roger Burdette’s Renaissance books that there were Matte Proof Lincoln cents that had natural purple toning. The cause he cited was that the mint wrapped at least some of the coins in tissue paper when the agency sold them. If the owners stored the coins in the tissue paper, the sulfur in paper produced blue toning, which when combined with the red in the bronze coin produced a purple color.

 

As a veteran collector I know of at least three other sources where sulfur could come in contact with Proof copper coins while they were in storage. Before there were flips collectors and dealers used small envelopes to store coins. Many times these envelopes were made of convention paper that contained sulfur. In addition some collectors also wrapped their coins in a small piece of tissue paper and inserted that into the envelopes, which was another source of sulfur. And, many of the old time albums contained sulfur as well. Anyone who has been collecting higher grade older coins knows all about “album toning” which is a result of the sulfur that was in the cardboard used in the album.

 

Given these factors, it is not all surprising that some Proof Indian and Lincoln cents exhibit at least some blue toning. Here are two examples.

 

This 1896 Proof Indian cent has more blue that what is shown in these pictures. NGC graded it PR-65, brown. The color is a purple-ish red with blue-purple highlights on both sides.

 

 

I shot these pictures of this 1913 Matte Proof Lincoln at an odd angle to show the blueish color. If this coin is viewed straight down it is brown, but from various angles it is blue - purple. Incidentally the obverse of this piece has a satin finish while the reverse has a dull matte finish. The reason for the anomaly is not the application of different methods to prepare the dies as some writers have claimed. The satin finish on the obverse is due to the fact that the die was smoothed from contact with the planchets during the striking process. The reverse was in service for a shorter time, and it still had the sand blasted surface of the Matte Proof die.

 

 

So don't despair if your Proof Indian or Lincoln cent has purple or blue on it. If the color is not “neon bright” it might have come from the way the coin was stored, not from a coin doctor’s clinic.

[jesbroken]

It's tough to make all encompassing statements such as "All", "Any", "Every" and be right MOST of the time much less ALL the time.

 

A few weeks ago I noted a thread where it was claimed that Proof Indian cents with blue toning were all AT despite the fact that the coins had been authenticated by the leading certification services. I thought that this assertion was a bit sweeping, but since I’m far from being an authority on Proof copper, I made no comment.

 

If one can say that anything that nature does to a coin, can be duplicated in a lab, then the inverse should be possible also. Any thing created in a lab, should be able to be naturally created. Neither of these statements could ultimately be proven. If I put away one hundred BU IHC's for 10 years wrapped in tissue-who could deny that any toning that occured was natural with no reservations? It would still be up to various individuals to decide. But, when toning occurs that violates certain natural "rules"(for lack of a better term), such as color patterns, then one might say with no reservations that this was artificial. In this coin market we work and play in, opinions are of a basic importance to the industry. Some opinions are more valued than others, which again is another opinion. I think that AT will be with us for as along as it creates premium values for coin. When that ends, so will AT. JMO.

Jim

[MarkFeld]

Bill, the examples you posted are not the type/appearance of which some people typically condemn as artificial (blue) color. And while I don't doubt that a number of toned examples acquired their color from storage in tissue paper, there are unquestionably numerous others which acquired their color by other means, such as the application of MS70 and/or something else.

[bajablu]

 

 

 

heres some at for you. i dont want to post someone elses photos, but since i almost bought this coin, i dont feel to bad using it. i think you need to judge each coin on its own merits. to say everything has been cleaned, well really isnt treu. how can you prove that? or disprove that.?

[MarkFeld]

 

 

 

heres some at for you. i dont want to post someone elses photos, but since i almost bought this coin, i dont feel to bad using it. i think you need to judge each coin on its own merits. to say everything has been cleaned, well really isnt treu. how can you prove that? or disprove that.?

Now THAT coin IS the type/appearance of which some people typically condemn as artificial (blue) color.

[bajablu]

i only needed to see one in hand to know the big difference. all wont be as prominent but if you can see one without and one with,(at) at the same time, you can see the difference.imho

[MarkFeld]

i only needed to see one in hand to know the big difference. all wont be as prominent but if you can see one without and one with,(at) at the same time, you can see the difference.imho

It's not always quite that easy - you left out the "maybe or maybe not" category.

[gmarguli]

i only needed to see one in hand to know the big difference. all wont be as prominent but if you can see one without and one with,(at) at the same time, you can see the difference.imho

 

(thumbs u

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

 

 

 

 

 

Greg, is that what you look like when you have to go to the bathroom REALLY badly?

 

 

 

 

 

[gmarguli]

 

 

 

 

Greg, is that what you look like when you have to go to the bathroom REALLY badly?

 

 

 

Nope, that's what I looked like when I noticed you were selling a Kennedy half on your web site.

[MarkFeld]

 

 

 

 

Greg, is that what you look like when you have to go to the bathroom REALLY badly?

 

 

 

Nope, that's what I looked like when I noticed you were selling a Kennedy half on your web site.

(thumbs u You officially won that () contest.

[rrantique]

 

 

 

 

Greg, is that what you look like when you have to go to the bathroom REALLY badly?

 

 

 

 

 

I look like this.

[bajablu]

 

 

yea i left out the maybe. my bad. this though is what i stay away from on copper. i wasnt trying to say its a flawless method. i know personally ill stay away from such coins, thats all. i like the colors on alot of copper coins, but i wouldnt want to pay moon money for them. im not saying some wont at the drop of a hat. i just wont. thats all.

 

 

 

[bajablu]

ewww. okay i thought this was a educational thread. my bad.

 

rolmfao

[MikeInFL]

Here are a few I would be worried about:

 

[MikeInFL]

[MikeInFL]

[just-john]

olny thing missing was rinse and repeat

[bajablu]

yup. the coin wasnt bad in hand other than the color.

[MAULEMALL]

Rick said STFU OR I'M GONNA SUE,, and they did.

And then Mark said, I'm only gonna sell them for a small BIG profit ,, and he did..

 

 

 

Lots of things were said.. and then edited..

[MarkFeld]

In case anyone reading this thread doesn't know and is curious, it appears that MAULEMALL was trying to be funny and/or he simply misstated what both "Rick" and "Mark" (I) said.

[MAULEMALL]

In case anyone reading this thread doesn't know and is curious, it appears that MAULEMALL was trying to be funny and/or he simply misstated what both "Rick" and "Mark" (I) said.

I fixed it Mark,,, Effin smileys

 

But it does lead to a LOT of questions that were never answered..

[MarkFeld]

In case anyone reading this thread doesn't know and is curious, it appears that MAULEMALL was trying to be funny and/or he simply misstated what both "Rick" and "Mark" (I) said.

I fixed it Mark,,, Effin smileys

 

But it does lead to a LOT of questions that were never answered..

You changed it, slightly and it is still highly inaccurate in a number of ways.For example, I don't think Rick ever actually threatened to sue. Either way, posters, including myself, certainly didn't stop commenting. Much later (I believe it was a number of months), however, PCGS deleted the entire thread. You obviously also badly distorted what I said, as well as what I did.

 

No smileys from me.

[truthteller]

Solid blue indians and lincolns, especially matte proofs and brilliant proofs are not natural color in the vast majority of instances. Intermingled blues, violets and greens tend to be more true color. Electric blues and greens are a sign of originality often found from original tissue paper wrappings. If you cannot tell the difference or know of someone with old school knowlege then don't spend your money even if it's in a holder. Some MS70'd coins eventually change color, especially when in a humid environment. Many dealers and collectors now know the solid blues are generally not real color and will no longer pay premiums or simply avoid purchase. However, those people who still manufacture those colors seem to find an audience with ebay buyers.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[lkenefic]

Bill... Thanks for this thread. It's timely for me as I have the oportunity to purchase my first PF IHC but I'm leary of the reverse "toning". The obverse on this piece (1885) is RD but the reverse looks RB when viewed straight on but almost gun-metal blue when tilted. What might have caused this? I was thinking that the piece might have been stored obverse side up on a piece of tissue paper...

 

All... so when does "I only lightly cleaned the piece with a Q-tip and MS70" cross the line into "I used Comet and Brillo pad" or the "Taco Bell napkin on a window sill" treatment? I see a whole lot of middle ground in here. I've cleaned off dirt and PVC with acetone and a Q-tip but is there some industry standard that crosses a line to where a coin is now BB'd for cleaning or AT?

[MAULEMALL]

In case anyone reading this thread doesn't know and is curious, it appears that MAULEMALL was trying to be funny and/or he simply misstated what both "Rick" and "Mark" (I) said.

I fixed it Mark,,, Effin smileys

 

But it does lead to a LOT of questions that were never answered..

You changed it, slightly and it is still highly inaccurate in a number of ways.For example, I don't think Rick ever actually threatened to sue. Either way, posters, including myself, certainly didn't stop commenting. Much later (I believe it was a number of months), however, PCGS deleted the entire thread. You obviously also badly distorted what I said, as well as what I did.

 

No smileys from me.

Well I think that a nerve has been struck but as I am not the one who started the Blue copper Controversy.

Or the one who dragged it out.

Or the one who keeps reopening the topic.

Or even one who profited from the thread.

Or from future sale of the same blue copper.

I only have My recollections to go on.

Maybe someone saved the thread?

Smilies for everyone

 

[MarkFeld]

In case anyone reading this thread doesn't know and is curious, it appears that MAULEMALL was trying to be funny and/or he simply misstated what both "Rick" and "Mark" (I) said.

I fixed it Mark,,, Effin smileys

 

But it does lead to a LOT of questions that were never answered..

You changed it, slightly and it is still highly inaccurate in a number of ways.For example, I don't think Rick ever actually threatened to sue. Either way, posters, including myself, certainly didn't stop commenting. Much later (I believe it was a number of months), however, PCGS deleted the entire thread. You obviously also badly distorted what I said, as well as what I did.

 

No smileys from me.

Well I think that a nerve has been struck but as I am not the one who started the Blue copper Controversy.

Or the one who dragged it out.

Or the one who keeps reopening the topic.

Or even one who profited from the thread.

Or from future sale of the same blue copper.

I only have My recollections to go on.

Maybe someone saved the thread?

Smilies for everyone

Regardless of the subject matter, distortions/misrepresentations like yours in this thread absolutely strike a nerve in me.

 

 

All... so when does "I only lightly cleaned the piece with a Q-tip and MS70" cross the line into "I used Comet and Brillo pad" or the "Taco Bell napkin on a window sill" treatment? I see a whole lot of middle ground in here. I've cleaned off dirt and PVC with acetone and a Q-tip but is there some industry standard that crosses a line to where a coin is now BB'd for cleaning or AT?

Different people will have different answers and lines on that subject. And the grading (or no-grading) of copper coins that have been artificially colored can be quite inconsistent.

 

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

Regardless of the subject matter, distortions/misrepresentations like yours in this thread absolutely strike a nerve in me.

You can repeat that Mantra all you wish. It doesn't change the recollections of myself and I am sure quite a few others.

 

[BillJones]

Bill... Thanks for this thread. It's timely for me as I have the oportunity to purchase my first PF IHC but I'm leary of the reverse "toning". The obverse on this piece (1885) is RD but the reverse looks RB when viewed straight on but almost gun-metal blue when tilted. What might have caused this? I was thinking that the piece might have been stored obverse side up on a piece of tissue paper...

 

All... so when does "I only lightly cleaned the piece with a Q-tip and MS70" cross the line into "I used Comet and Brillo pad" or the "Taco Bell napkin on a window sill" treatment? I see a whole lot of middle ground in here. I've cleaned off dirt and PVC with acetone and a Q-tip but is there some industry standard that crosses a line to where a coin is now BB'd for cleaning or AT?

 

I've seen a number to "two sided" 19th century coins. I once had 1897 Indian cent that was red on the obverse and brown on the reverse. Both sides appeared to be original. PCGS seemed to split the difference and graded it MS-64, R&B. I now have an 1854 with arrows half that is bright on the obverse and toned gray on the reverse.

 

I think that 19th century storage methods had something to do with this. One side laid in a coin cabinet against the velvet while the other side was face up. The question is which side was face up and which face down? I could see the face up side toning if it was constantly exposed to the light. I could see the face side toning because of a reaction to something in the velvet. Without "being there" the answer is murky.

 

For more modern coins, the effects of being stored in a Whitman album could the same thing. The side against the paper could tone while the other side might not tone. At any rate the same coin can have a deferent look on each side because of the storage method.

 

[MarkFeld]

Regardless of the subject matter, distortions/misrepresentations like yours in this thread absolutely strike a nerve in me.

You can repeat that Mantra all you wish. It doesn't change the recollections of myself and I am sure quite a few others.

If I cared about your so-called "recollections" (as opposed to other people getting the wrong impression from your factual distortions) I would go to the trouble to try to locate and post the relevant comments and facts. As it stands, if anyone who has read your comments would like to hear the truth, instead, they are free to PM me and I will go to the trouble for them.

 

Edited to add: One thing I need not look up is the so called "BIG profit" you claimed I made. I sold one consigned coin with full disclosure of the fact that I believed the color to be artificial, at a 5% (or less) commission, approximately $30 total (less postage). And I consigned to auction two others on behalf of the same client and made nothing on either of them.