Should collectors to be “blue” about their blue Proof Indian cents?

[gmarguli]

Solid blue indians and lincolns, especially matte proofs and brilliant proofs are not natural color in the vast majority of instances.

 

BS. They're tissue paper toned. If that won't work, the market will come up with a new story to go along with all the other stories. Collectors love stories. I personally love this one story about some bag toned Morgans. The before/after pictures that go with the story sure are nice.

 

 

Intermingled blues, violets and greens tend to be more true color. Electric blues and greens are a sign of originality often found from original tissue paper wrappings.

 

I agree 100%. FYI, you can replace "tissue paper" with "proof set cellophane" to explain the coins from the 1955-64 with these electric blue and green colors. Or "poly bags" to explain the coins from the 1936-55.

 

BTW, green color used to be the standard for telling it the coin was NT as that was said to be the hardest to fake. Two years ago on these forums I mentioned that green was the new big thing to fake for some people. Sure are a lot more green coins on the market today. Quite a few MPL with green recently. I love that green and electric blue mixture. Yum. Must be the higher premiums bringing them out of collections. Yep, that's the story. Someone couldn't possibly be making them. They're tissue paper toned.

 

 

If you cannot tell the difference or know of someone with old school knowlege then don't spend your money even if it's in a holder.

 

Coming from the guy who didn't know anything about this subject until I told him. And "old school knowledge" really helps as the old school people knew nothing about cleaning coins and all coins were original back then.

 

 

Some MS70'd coins eventually change color, especially when in a humid environment.

 

Some 100% NT and also white coins eventually change color, especially when in a humid environment. Metals are reactive.

 

 

Many dealers and collectors now know the solid blues are generally not real color and will no longer pay premiums or simply avoid purchase.

 

For proof of this, check recent auction prices. You'll see these coins are only selling for melt.

[MarkFeld]

I agree 100%. FYI, you can replace "tissue paper" with "proof set cellophane" to explain the coins from the 1955-64 with these electric blue and green colors...Or "poly bags" to explain the coins from the 1936-55.

Greg, I wasn't aware that poly-bags can tone coins to the extent that you implied and had thought they were usually used for short term storage. I am aware of Proof coins from the 30's and 40's being in cellophane, but not poly-bags. I'm not doubting you but would like to learn about this. Would you mind sharing your thoughts and experiences with what colors are most likely to occur from that type of storage, etc? Thanks.

[truthteller]

Ho Hum,

 

Let's repeat.

 

SOLID blue copper is questionable in the vast majority of lincolns and IHC. Many people who have knowledge refuse to buy them.

 

Electric green is a sign of originality. Lime green, PKOK green and less intense green is questionable in many cases

 

MS70'd coins change color over time. Would you want an original coin with nice color to become more intense over time or an MS70'd coin which becomes more ugly or unnatural over time?

 

Those people who manufacture color copper are still finding an audience with ebay auction buyers. Real color for people who know what they are buying are finding spectacular prices. MS70'd coins are finding fewer homes and discounted levels.

 

 

Know what to look for, since there are those who want to continue selling MS70'd coins. Eventually, that market will collapse bringing down all those who paid super premiums and end up with a slab full of corroded copper.

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

 

 

[truthteller]

I agree 100%. FYI, you can replace "tissue paper" with "proof set cellophane" to explain the coins from the 1955-64 with these electric blue and green colors...Or "poly bags" to explain the coins from the 1936-55.

Greg, I wasn't aware that poly-bags can tone coins to the extent that you implied and had thought they were usually used for short term storage. I am aware of Proof coins from the 30's and 40's being in cellophane, but not poly-bags. I'm not doubting you but would like to learn about this. Would you mind sharing your thoughts and experiences with what colors are most likely to occur from that type of storage, etc? Thanks.

 

 

Polybags form a haze to copper, not specific colors. Polybags will haze silver coins, especially proofs. In the end, you have a coin which will need conservation.

 

 

TRUTH

[lkenefic]

All... so when does "I only lightly cleaned the piece with a Q-tip and MS70" cross the line into "I used Comet and Brillo pad" or the "Taco Bell napkin on a window sill" treatment? I see a whole lot of middle ground in here. I've cleaned off dirt and PVC with acetone and a Q-tip but is there some industry standard that crosses a line to where a coin is now BB'd for cleaning or AT?

Different people will have different answers and lines on that subject. And the grading (or no-grading) of copper coins that have been artificially colored can be quite inconsistent.

 

So this is a subjectivity issue and I suppose it doesn't really matter what I think about it. Unfortunately, it becomes really important what the graders at NGC or PCGS think. In my case, if I crack the PF64 IHC and resubmit it to a different grading service and it comes back BB'd I'm sort of screwed for relying on the initial grader's interpretation of toning. Especially if the first graders "line in the sand" is different than the second grader's line. I guess this is the danger inherent to the crack-out game... pretty expensive ride though... L

[BillJones]

Greg, I wasn't aware that poly-bags can tone coins to the extent that you implied and had thought they were usually used for short term storage.

 

The cloudy looking polybags that the mint used for Proof sets for half of 1954 and for the box sets of 1955 toned, perhaps more accurately ruined, many silver coins in those sets. The sets I've seen did not tone to attractive colors. They were usually dull brown or even black, and dipping usually only made the situation worse.

 

The cellophane bags the mint used for the 1950 to mid '54 sets preserved the coins better. Usually the toning was light or there was no toning at all. If the bag broke open and the coin came in contact with the tissue paper, sometimes blues, greens and other colors resulted.

 

For whatever reason the Proof coins from 1936 to '42 tended to get cloudy, not colorful. Cloudy toned Proof coins from this era are original, but it's been my experience that they are almost impossible to sell. These coins have to be dipped to make them "market acceptable."

[MarkFeld]

All... so when does "I only lightly cleaned the piece with a Q-tip and MS70" cross the line into "I used Comet and Brillo pad" or the "Taco Bell napkin on a window sill" treatment? I see a whole lot of middle ground in here. I've cleaned off dirt and PVC with acetone and a Q-tip but is there some industry standard that crosses a line to where a coin is now BB'd for cleaning or AT?

Different people will have different answers and lines on that subject. And the grading (or no-grading) of copper coins that have been artificially colored can be quite inconsistent.

 

So this is a subjectivity issue and I suppose it doesn't really matter what I think about it. Unfortunately, it becomes really important what the graders at NGC or PCGS think. In my case, if I crack the PF64 IHC and resubmit it to a different grading service and it comes back BB'd I'm sort of screwed for relying on the initial grader's interpretation of toning. Especially if the first graders "line in the sand" is different than the second grader's line. I guess this is the danger inherent to the crack-out game... pretty expensive ride though... L That (crack out of holder and subsequent body-bag)scenario can occur with all types of coins and I don't recommend chancing it for the faint of heart. If you won't be happy with a coin in holder X and only want it in holder Y, wait and buy one already in holder Y, and save yourself the money and potential aggravation.

[MarkFeld]

Greg, I wasn't aware that poly-bags can tone coins to the extent that you implied and had thought they were usually used for short term storage.

 

The cloudy looking polybags that the mint used for Proof sets for half of 1954 and for the box sets of 1955 toned, perhaps more accurately ruined, many silver coins in those sets. The sets I've seen did not tone to attractive colors. They were usually dull brown or even black, and dipping usually only made the situation worse.

 

The cellophane bags the mint used for the 1950 to mid '54 sets preserved the coins better. Usually the toning was light or there was no toning at all. If the bag broke open and the coin came in contact with the tissue paper, sometimes blues, greens and other colors resulted.

 

For whatever reason the Proof coins from 1936 to '42 tended to get cloudy, not colorful. Cloudy toned Proof coins from this era are original, but it's been my experience that they are almost impossible to sell. These coins have to be dipped to make them "market acceptable."

Thanks Bill. Have you seen 1936-42 Proofs in poly-bags or just cellophane from the mint? I don't recall seeing the former. I agree about the predominantly cloudy and non-colorful toning from the cellophane. And I believe that most of the ones found with attractive and/or vivid toning have seen time in albums or other types of holders, subsequent to removal from the cellophane..

[gmarguli]

I agree 100%. FYI, you can replace "tissue paper" with "proof set cellophane" to explain the coins from the 1955-64 with these electric blue and green colors...Or "poly bags" to explain the coins from the 1936-55.

Greg, I wasn't aware that poly-bags can tone coins to the extent that you implied and had thought they were usually used for short term storage. I am aware of Proof coins from the 30's and 40's being in cellophane, but not poly-bags. I'm not doubting you but would like to learn about this. Would you mind sharing your thoughts and experiences with what colors are most likely to occur from that type of storage, etc? Thanks.

 

I was being sarcastic. All the copper coinage can be made blue using several means depending on how drastic you want to get. To say that it is tissue paper causing it for the blue Indians is a joke. It's as much a joke to say it is the cellophane (flat pack material) for the 1955-1964 copper that turned them blue or the bags for the 1936-42 coinage. People can tell stories to the buying public about what caused the color change, but in reality most of the time it is none of what is told.

 

Look at the well known stories for toned coin hoards. What percentage do you know are not true? What percentage do you think aren't true? We know some of the people behind some of these hoards, yet people still relate the stories as if they are true. Stories sell coins and the collecting community loves a good story as much (better?) than a good coin.

[gmarguli]

Electric green is a sign of originality. Lime green, PKOK green and less intense green is questionable in many cases

 

PKOK / Peacock green is questionable? Come on, I've heard the story behind these coins. They were put in bank holders, buried in 55 gallon drums, driven around the country with the Donner party, and then toned awesome. It must be true as I've heard the story.

 

 

MS70'd coins change color over time. Would you want an original coin with nice color to become more intense over time or an MS70'd coin which becomes more ugly or unnatural over time?

 

Considering I've been working with MS70 for a hell of a lot longer than you - and told you about it - and not noticed this change, perhaps the residual chemicals from your AT lab are causing the change and not the MS70?

 

 

Those people who manufacture color copper are still finding an audience with ebay auction buyers. Real color for people who know what they are buying are finding spectacular prices. MS70'd coins are finding fewer homes and discounted levels.

 

Incorrect. 100% wrong. Look at the Heritage auction results for MS70 blue copper. Strong prices. Look at the results that other auction houses have received over the past two years. Strong prices! eBay prices have been weaker than the auction houses.

 

 

Know what to look for, since there are those who want to continue selling MS70'd coins. Eventually, that market will collapse bringing down all those who paid super premiums and end up with a slab full of corroded copper.

 

So, MS70 now causes corrosion? Wow, it's getting worse and worse. Next thing it'll cause coins to turn to dust, cause Mad Cow disease, and contribute to global warming.

[BillJones]

Thanks Bill. Have you seen 1936-42 Proofs in poly-bags or just cellophane from the mint? I don't recall seeing the former. I agree about the predominantly cloudy and non-colorful toning from the cellophane. And I believe that most of the ones found with attractive and/or vivid toning have seen time in albums or other types of holders, subsequent to removal from the cellophane

 

I believe that the mint only used cellophane for the the 1936 to 42 Proof sets. There were no polybags. I have a theory, which may be all wet about the toning on these sets, but here goes.

 

Back around 1973 I bought a 1942 Proof set from a very old dealer who had been in the business at least since the '30s. The coins were in cellophane bags that were not stapled together which were all wrapped in tissure paper. All of the silver coins, which inclued the war nickel, had the usual cloudy film. The cent and Type I nickel were slightly toned but nice. The dime had some golden brown toning on it from a spot where the cellophane bag had broken down and turned brown.

 

My theory is this. I believe that many of the Proof sets from the '30s and '40s were stored in unstapled bags and wrapped in tissue paper as they were shipped from the mint. The surfur from the tissue was able to get at the coins only through the unsealed end of the cello bags. Therefore the toning only began to form, and the form it took was hazing, which is pretty easy to dip off. Sets from the 1950 to mid '54 also came in cello bags, but they were always stapled together. That cut down on the almount of air and sulfur that made it to the coins. Therefore these coins seldom got cloudy unless they are stored in hot envirment, which served to speed up toning.

 

The really corlorful Proof coins from the '30, '40 and early to mid '50s got that way because they were either stored in an album or more often because they got out of the bags and came in contact with the tissure paper for a long time. Tissue paper toning was most often the source for the early (prior to '36) silver Proof coin toning, and I think the same thing applied to many of the later pieces. The trouble is the vast majority of them never came in direct contact with the tissuse paper, they did not have a chance to get the colorful toning you see on Proofs from the 19th century and early 20th century.

 

Choice colorful toning can be found on the coins from the '40s. Here is one of them. (The picture does not do this coin justice. It's in an NGC PR-67 holder and is quite attractive.) It's just that the conditions for it to form were much more unusual becasue the cello bags and later the stapling.

 

[truthteller]

"Considering I've been working with MS70 for a hell of a lot longer than you - and told you about it - and not noticed this change"

 

 

Maybe the reason is you have sold them all? :naughty:

 

For a substantial profit? :think:

 

 

 

Once again, real colored copper sells for substantial premiums when the buyers know what to look for. MS70'd copper is dropping in value.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

"Considering I've been working with MS70 for a hell of a lot longer than you - and told you about it - and not noticed this change"

 

Maybe the reason is you have sold them all? :naughty:

 

For a substantial profit? :think:

 

Define substantial profit. Is it more or less than the profit you make from turning white commems into toned commems and then selling them in TPG slabs?

 

 

Once again, real colored copper sells for substantial premiums when the buyers know what to look for. MS70'd copper is dropping in value.

 

If you wish to show your lack of knowledge on this subject, by all means, please continue to post.

[truthteller]

I love this

 

 

You're supposed to know the end result by keeping the experimental pieces to find out what happens over time. I know because I have all my experiments. :thumbsup:

 

Any first year freshman knows this. :doh:

 

Unless there are nefarious intentions.

 

Some people simply color coins, sell them, make a profit. Then they say unqualified statements because they no longer have the coins. :naughty: Then, they get angry for being exposed and lash out at the forum members. :think: Eventually, the end user finds out after a few years that the color is ugly, unnatural and unsaleable.

 

 

Take a gamble and buy MS70'd blue coins.

 

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[lkenefic]

 

I think this is deja vu...

[truthteller]

 

I think this is deja vu...

 

 

More like "deja blue". :shrug:

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

You're supposed to know the end result by keeping the experimental pieces to find out what happens over time. I know because I have all my experiments. :thumbsup:

 

Yes, but who has your regular production run coins? It's clear that you're good enough to get all your doctored coins into TPG slabs, so your experiments must have been a success. I'm glad you kept your early work for your own personal admiration, but you clearly haven't kept your later work after you perfected your experiments.

 

And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you shouldn't share your work with the world. You're very good at putting color onto white commemoratives.

[truthteller]

but you clearly haven't kept your later work after you perfected your experiments.

 

 

Simple to say, I can happily deny this. :thumbsup:

 

 

Lashing out is a psycological sign of having a guilt complex. :think: I think the forum members understand why.

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

 

 

[gmarguli]

but you clearly haven't kept your later work after you perfected your experiments.

 

 

Simple to say, I can happily deny this. :thumbsup:

.

 

I did not have sex with that woman...Ms. Lewinsky...

 

[lkenefic]

Gee... I didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky either ... this prooves???

 

[MAULEMALL]

Gee... I didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky either ... this prooves???

 

That truthtellers name is in actuality an oxymoron (thumbs u

[truthteller]

Gee... I didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky either ... this prooves???

 

That truthtellers name is in actuality an oxymoron (thumbs u

 

Lemme guess,

 

Maulemall = that "I got booted out from the military on a section 8"? :think:

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MAULEMALL]

Gee... I didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky either ... this prooves???

 

That truthtellers name is in actuality an oxymoron (thumbs u

 

Lemme guess,

 

Maulemall means that "I got booted out from the military on a section 8"? :think:

 

 

 

TRUTH

No LT,,, 7 years in the Corp Honorable discharge...

Besides your doctoring coins and fondleing Fondness for puppies what have you done for your country?? Oh,,, Thats right,, You hate America..

See Ya Troll

[truthteller]

 

"No LT,,, 7 years in the Corp Honorable discharge..."

 

 

Sorry, I don't believe you.

 

Please see post below.

 

 

 

 

I did not have sex with that woman...Ms. Lewinsky...

 

 

 

TRUTH

[physics-fan3.14]

:popcorn:

 

I really like the ad hominem attacks, that makes it even more fun...

[MAULEMALL]

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't believe you.

 

 

LIAR

Who really cares what you think..

[bajablu]

HUH????

[bajablu]

i thought this was about the fake toned ihc proofs and the matte proofs? what happened? wheres The honorable Mr.Feld? I dont like waht MS70 does and I think its wrong. period. for color or not for profit or not. its wrong. period.

 

 

Think about this, the only matte proof lincoln cent with the star designation at NGC is a MS70 cleaned coin. Thats nuts, market acceptable or not.

[gmarguli]

Think about this, the only matte proof lincoln cent with the star designation at NGC is a MS70 cleaned coin. Thats nuts, market acceptable or not.

 

So. :shrug: A vast majority of the toned MPL are the work of MS70 or similar cleaners.

[relicsncoins]

I like coins.