A little help with Cameo vs Deep (Ultra) Cameo

[SilverEagleCoins]

I lifted these definitions from the PCGS Lingo page. I am not sure what is the difference. I even tried looking at pics on eBay of CAM and DCAM coins to see if I could find the difference. I also understand NGC uses the term Ultra Cameo instead of DCAM. Is it the degree of "whiteness" of the devices?

 

Cameo

The term applied to coins, usually Proofs and prooflike coins, that have frosted devices and lettering that contrast with the fields. When this is deep the coins are said to be “black and white” cameos. Occasionally frosty coins have “cameo” devices though they obviously do not contrast as dramatically with the fields as the cameo devices of Proofs do. Specifically applied by PCGS to those 1950 and later Proofs that meet cameo standards (CAM).

 

 

Deep Cameo

The term applied to coins, usually Proofs and prooflike coins, that have deeply frosted devices and lettering that contrast with the fields - often called “black and white” cameos. Specifically applied to those 1950 and later Proofs that meet deep cameo standards (DCAM).

 

 

[MarkFeld]

SilverEagleCoins,

 

The difference between "Cameo" and "Deep/Ultra Cameo" is based upon the degree of frost on the devices, the amount of contrast between the frosted devices and the non-frosted fields and the depth to the mirrored surfaces. There is often a fine and/or inconsistent line between the two.

 

While the comparison of the three coins below is certainly not the best illustration for you, hopefully it will at least give you an idea. Here are three Proof 1909 Liberty Nickels, one which is not designated "Cameo" or "Ultra/Deep Cameo", one which is designated "Cameo" and one which is "Deep Cameo" - hopefully you will be able to tell which is which:

 

 

 

[SilverEagleCoins]

Obviously the bottom is non-cam. The whole coin is the same shade.

 

The middle set appears to have the greatest contrast but it also looks like it is toned dark. If based purely on contrast I say the middle set is DCAM.

 

The top set obviously has contrast but because it is not toned much the contrast is not as "deep" as the middle. So I say the top set is CAM.

 

How did I do?

[MarkFeld]

Would you believe that you were 0 for 3?

1 for 3?

Ok, you were 3 for 3.

 

The toning on the middle coin (the "Deep Cameo") is actually quite light, but, you have raised an important consideration. Generally speaking, if the devices are frosted but the frost is mostly or completely toned over and thereby obscured, the coin will not receive a "Cameo" designation. There are exceptions, depending upon the toning and the amount of frost that is apparent through the toning.

[gmarguli]

Please don't take offense, but the toning on the middle coin looks like dip residue.

[SilverEagleCoins]

Maybe it was the lighting but it looks like the field was darker on the middle set. The more I look at it, it may be a shadow or even the reflection of the photography equipment

[EZ_E]

SEC,

 

In my experience, it seems that both PCGS and NGC have a commercial deep/ultra cameo designation on many modern issues. What I mean is that although there is just minimal contrast between the device and field, they still recieve the deep/ultra cameo designation. Perhaps that is what confused you earlier when viewing pictures of various coins but could not nail down a definition?

 

As an x-ray/cat scan technologist, my whole job boils down to differences in contrast in order to view an image. Therefore, this makes the subject of contrast a personal concern of mine.

 

Personally, I feel that "commercial" grading is detrimental and confusing to the collector but that is the way things are.

 

p.s. It is nice having you on the boards. You are always positive and have brought the "spirit" of collecting to these boards. Thanks for your contributions!

[EZ_E]

p.p.s. The following thread has some great examples of deep cameos:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=281234&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7

 

Especially, check out the pattern nickel.