Just because you like your dealer...

[MikeKing]

Or your dealer is touted by people ATS etc etc...

Or you actually believe, true-heartedly that they KNOW something about coins (because 'pretty' can be deceptively pretty and truly, those that CAN distinguish, or are even WILLING to distinguish, are FEW and FAR between).

 

 

 

DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET DOCTORED COINS FROM THEM

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[MunkyMan95]

Care to elaborate?

[MarkFeld]

Or your dealer is touted by people ATS etc etc...

Or you actually believe, true-heartedly that they KNOW something about coins (because 'pretty' can be deceptively pretty and truly, those that CAN distinguish, or are even WILLING to distinguish, are FEW and FAR between).

 

 

 

DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET DOCTORED COINS FROM THEM

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

I agree, and that is regardless of where or by whom the dealers are touted. Also, keep in mind that the dealer might be knowingly or unknowingly selling those doctored coins.

[MBA101]

Or your dealer is touted by people ATS etc etc...

Or you actually believe, true-heartedly that they KNOW something about coins (because 'pretty' can be deceptively pretty and truly, those that CAN distinguish, or are even WILLING to distinguish, are FEW and FAR between).

 

 

 

DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET DOCTORED COINS FROM THEM

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

Uh-oh! What happened? I hope it wasn't a or even a

[TomB]

Or your dealer is touted by people ATS etc etc...

Or you actually believe, true-heartedly that they KNOW something about coins (because 'pretty' can be deceptively pretty and truly, those that CAN distinguish, or are even WILLING to distinguish, are FEW and FAR between).

 

 

 

DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET DOCTORED COINS FROM THEM

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

I agree, and that is regardless of where or by whom the dealers are touted. Also, keep in mind that the dealer might be knowingly or unknowingly selling those doctored coins.

I believe that is a fair assesment by both Mike and Mark.

[ibyandsellsmith]

"Just because a coin looks doctored to one, doesn't mean it is, and just because a coin doesn't look doctored to another, doesn't mean, it is not."

By

Richard Allan Smith

Poet and he knows it.

 

[MikeKing]

Care to elaborate?

 

First, before I respond to this quote, I want to say; Thank you Mark.

 

Also, my apologies even for mentioning ATS or dealers touted ATS, I shouldn't have limited to that, it was silly.

 

But in answer to MunkyMan95's question, MunkyMan, what I mean is, that there are more doctored coins out there than most collectors on this board could even imagine. I myself am purging my collection of any doctored coins (please note, this does not mean if I sell a coin from my collection, that it is doctored, as I am also refining my set in other ways), and I DO NOT have adequate skills in determining many different forms of doctoring...and as such, have to rely on other's examining my coins, or looking at coins I may be interested in, to point out doctoring that I myself could not initially see on my own.

 

There are many dealers out there, well known, big time dealers who

a. Don't know enough to know coins they sell are doctored

b. Don't care to know

c. Know and don't care

 

So beware, and understand, even the 'finest' collections are filled with doctored coins, much of which is probably entirely unknown to the collector, or the dealer who sold them the coin.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Mike is there any particular type and/or increased frequency of doctoring that you have become aware of recently that caused you to start this thread, or is it the "usual suspects"? Thanks.

[MikeKing]

Hazing, for example.

[WinstonWare]

Hazing, for example.

 

What's hazing?

[IGWT]

During a recent conversation with an experienced dealer, I estimated that 90% of those involved in the coin trade either actively participate in the shenanigans (by doctoring coins themselves or knowingly serving as retail outlets) or passively support those who do (by their ignorance or reluctance to become involved). He did not disagree with my estimate.

 

[TomB]

Mike, this is something you have not mentioned in your thread, but is something that I am nearly alone on in my opinion; do you consider a dipped coin to be a doctored coin?

[WinstonWare]

During a recent conversation with an experienced dealer, I estimated that 90% of those involved in the coin trade either actively participate in the shenanigans (by doctoring coins themselves or knowingly serving as retail outlets) or passively support those who do (by their ignorance or reluctance to become involved). He did not disagree with my estimate.

 

Wow. That's a lot of shenanigans!

[gmarguli]

During a recent conversation with an experienced dealer, I estimated that 90% of those involved in the coin trade either actively participate in the shenanigans (by doctoring coins themselves or knowingly serving as retail outlets) or passively support those who do (by their ignorance or reluctance to become involved). He did not disagree with my estimate.

 

And the other 10% lie or are clueless.

[MikeKing]

Mike, this is something you have not mentioned in your thread, but is something that I am nearly alone on in my opinion; do you consider a dipped coin to be a doctored coin?

 

Not unless it is done to hide something.

[TomB]

Mike, this is something you have not mentioned in your thread, but is something that I am nearly alone on in my opinion; do you consider a dipped coin to be a doctored coin?

 

Not unless it is done to hide something.

It's a good thing that this is your working definition because we both know how many coins would be disqualified if you used my definition.

[michael]

Or your dealer is touted by people ATS etc etc...

Or you actually believe, true-heartedly that they KNOW something about coins (because 'pretty' can be deceptively pretty and truly, those that CAN distinguish, or are even WILLING to distinguish, are FEW and FAR between).

 

 

 

DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET DOCTORED COINS FROM THEM

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

I agree, and that is regardless of where or by whom the dealers are touted. Also, keep in mind that the dealer might be knowingly or unknowingly selling those doctored coins.

I believe that is a fair assesment by both Mike and Mark.

 

 

(thumbs u

[just-john]

Keep in mind In the book a Coin Collector's Survival Manual™, David Hall,

founder and president of the Professional Coin Grading

Service, estimated that 50 percent or more of the uncertified

coins appearing at auction have been tampered with in some

way--doctored or altered. That says to me that it very common and most dealers say little That's food for serious thought.

Can you remember when the hobby was just that a hobby and not just about the money.Think that was like 1979 ?

[Conder101]

Can you remember when the hobby was just that a hobby and not just about the money.Think that was like 1979 ?

Yes I can, and I don't think it has been a change for the better.

[just-john]

I agree --The part that gets me here Mr Hall says 50% doctored now do 50% of your coins get rejected for being doctoring do 50% of auctioned company mention doctoring.Take out all the modern mint stuff

[MikeKing]

and consider this; 50% of holdered coins are probably tampered with also.

[tonidanzawillpay]

its so easy thats why.. even the right auto polish werks.

calsuds cd-6,d-limonene,dpm(glycol ether),dpma(glycol ether acetate),dmpt,hi-sol 10. i dont see anything wrong with "doctoring" a coin...if u dont sell it. ive never bought or sold a coin, an i have a roll of die cracked pennies to prove it... its more enjoyable to work for ur coins(by searching). if u overlooked the "doctoring" then u paid ME for MY knowledge of coins, which seems like thats what u wanted.

 

[Frank Provasek]

While boring dipped silver coins are not as pretty as "wow" toned coins, it must be remembered that it's hard to tell for sure whether toning is real or "helped along" (when often chemically it's the same) but it is certain that whether the toning is "natural" or " artificial " (sometimes its argued that NT or AT depends on whether the coin "knows" it was put in a Wayte Raymond album with the INTENTION for it to tarnish....) it COULD be hinding something that would affect the value...either booming luster or a cleaned overdipped or hairlined surface.

 

The TPG practice of giving a Mint State coin a couple of extra points for the toning only encourages the funny business. The old school technical grading where toning or "eye appeal" does not affect the grade (although someone might pay more money for it) would be a better model. There would be less temptation to

mess with a coin's coloration if there was no chance that it could change from MS65 to MS67.

[just-john]

Mike that's were I was going if 50%are tampered with than 50% of say pre 1940 coins should come back BB .If Mr Hall's company doesn't BB 50% then of his company don't know what their doing or he doesn't know what he talking about somebody got to be wrong .

It's a math thing

so why do we do it simple like everything else were do it because it makes feel good.

It's like resubmitting coins always makes me understand the gambler in every one.I just paid $25.00 +shipping and insurance for advise that i don't believe and expert advise again

because i don't think the expert knows what he/she doing.So now if the coin comes back with the same grade then I change grading company's and try again if it comes back with a lower grade now I have to send it back to the first guy again . people are crazy and have to much money and spare time on their hands

[MarkFeld]

Mike that's were I was going if 50%are tampered with than 50% of say pre 1940 coins should come back BB .If Mr Hall's company doesn't BB 50% then of his company don't know what their doing or he doesn't know what he talking about somebody got to be wrong .

It's a math thing

so why do we do it simple like everything else were do it because it makes feel good.

It's like resubmitting coins always makes me understand the gambler in every one.I just paid $25.00 +shipping and insurance for advise that i don't believe and expert advise again

because i don't think the expert knows what he/she doing.So now if the coin comes back with the same grade then I change grading company's and try again if it comes back with a lower grade now I have to send it back to the first guy again . people are crazy and have to much money and spare time on their hands

Actually, even if 50% of the uncertified coins have been messed with that doesn't mean 50% should get body-bagged. The grading services see skewed submissions, in the sense that many of them have been screened by submitters so as not to submit coins which they know will be rejected.

 

And then there are the questions concerning how and to what extent a given coin has been messed with and whether that means it should automatically get body-bagged. That is often a tougher call than deciding what numerical grade a coin should be given.

[WinstonWare]

Hazing, for example.

 

What's hazing?

Anyone?

[rrantique]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing

[123cents]

Hazing, for example.

 

What's hazing?

Anyone?

 

Hazing is artificially toning a coin to hide defects. It can be done using smoke or other techniques.

[WinstonWare]

Hazing, for example.

 

What's hazing?

Anyone?

 

Hazing is artificially toning a coin to hide defects. It can be done using smoke or other techniques.

 

Ah. Thanks..

[MikeKing]

e.g., you could turn an AU58 into an MS62