A truly counterfeit coin

[stinkycheese1]

This is a coin I saw ATS on a thread there before I was banned. The poster said he sent it to PCGS or NGC and it came back as not authentic. Some people mentioned it has soft details. But it looks like a very good fake to me! It's fasinating to actually see a counterfeit coin, and its dianostics. Post here what you think makes it a counterfeit.

 

 

 

[stinkycheese1]

Something I noticed. The letters look too fat and mushy. Is this just me?

 

[just-john]

looks nice to me Why take the time to make 1907--2007 blue book ms63 $600.00 When1886 is $47,000.00 and most other dates are more than 1907 are you sure its fake or are some people pulling your leg

[MBA101]

The texture of the coin does not look right and the devices look a little mushy. The coin may be plated and not weigh exactly what it is supposed to for all we know from these pics.

[Conder101]

Why take the time to make 1907--2007 blue book ms63 $600.00 When1886 is $47,000.00 and most other dates are more than 1907

Because you show a 1907 to a busy dealer at a reasonable price and you have a fair chance of selling it. You show a raw 1886 to a dealer, busy or not they aren't going to touch it unless it is slabbed or they can buy it for melt. You make what you can sell easily, that's where the money is. You don't make a dime creating super high value items you can't sell.

 

Chances are this is one of the middle east counterfeits where they were just being made as a way to sell bullion to Americans back before it was legal to own it. At the time gold was $35 an oz, but Americans couldn't bring it into the country. Make it into a pre 1933 US coin and the counterfeiter could sell it for $45 to $50 and the buyer could bring it into the country much more easily. The American gets his gold and the counterfeiter get a premium price for his bullion. Coin collectors get a headache and years later families are disappointed to learn that grampa's family heirloom keepsake is just worth bullion and not the high values shown in the coin books.

[Zoins]

Why take the time to make 1907--2007 blue book ms63 $600.00 When1886 is $47,000.00 and most other dates are more than 1907

Because you show a 1907 to a busy dealer at a reasonable price and you have a fair chance of selling it. You show a raw 1886 to a dealer, busy or not they aren't going to touch it unless it is slabbed or they can buy it for melt. You make what you can sell easily, that's where the money is. You don't make a dime creating super high value items you can't sell.

 

Chances are this is one of the middle east counterfeits where they were just being made as a way to sell bullion to Americans back before it was legal to own it. At the time gold was $35 an oz, but Americans couldn't bring it into the country. Make it into a pre 1933 US coin and the counterfeiter could sell it for $45 to $50 and the buyer could bring it into the country much more easily. The American gets his gold and the counterfeiter get a premium price for his bullion. Coin collectors get a headache and years later families are disappointed to learn that grampa's family heirloom keepsake is just worth bullion and not the high values shown in the coin books.

That's very interesting Conder. It sounds like Americans knew what they were getting and intentionally imported the counterfeits as a way to hold on to hard assets. Adds to my understanding of this part of US history (thumbs u

[BillJones]

It's a shame that the photo was taken though a flip. The diagnostics would have shown up better.

 

But, yes the fields do look suspect, but the real give away is the “fatty letters” that one sees on counterfeit gold. This is one of things emphasized in the books on detecting counterfeit gold.

 

[Conder101]

It sounds like Americans knew what they were getting and intentionally imported the counterfeits as a way to hold on to hard assets.

Some, possibly many, of the importing Americans may not have realized they were fake, they just they were getting a good price. Double eagles here in the US were $55 t0 $60. They thought they were getting a bargain when they were actually just buying overpriced bullion, but it was still gold at a lower price than they could buy it here, and they could bring it home and hold it usually without getting hassled or risking having it confiscated in customs since pre 1933 US gold coins were legal. You would only have a problem if you tried to bring a lot in at once, or if you got a customs agent who was also a collector and recognized them as fake.

[CaptHenway]

I agree it looks like a typical Beirut Mint counterfeit from the 60's and 70's, but would like to see a better picture to be sure.

 

You are correct that most people bringing them back were ignorant of the fact that they were counterfeits. Look at all the people who buy fake trade dollars on vacation in China thinking they are putting one over on the ignorant peasant who sold it to them on the streets, never thinking that the coin could be counterfeit and the "ignorant peasant" is a middle class saleman who dresses down to go to work in the morning.

TD

[jtryka]

The lettering looks wrong, and the rims are a real problem (I don't recall that wire rims were common on Type 3 double eagles). It is still a high quality counterfeit though (and anyone that wants to sell me genuine coins in MS-63 for the $600 blue book price, PM me and I will buy all you can carry!).

[Conder101]

I'd even buy counterfeits of the proper weight and fineness, as the middle east fakes were, for $600.

[michael]

Because you show a 1907 to a busy dealer at a reasonable price and you have a fair chance of selling it. You show a raw 1886 to a dealer, busy or not they aren't going to touch it unless it is slabbed or they can buy it for melt. You make what you can sell easily, that's where the money is. You don't make a dime creating super high value items you can't sell.

 

Chances are this is one of the middle east counterfeits where they were just being made as a way to sell bullion to Americans back before it was legal to own it. At the time gold was $35 an oz, but Americans couldn't bring it into the country. Make it into a pre 1933 US coin and the counterfeiter could sell it for $45 to $50 and the buyer could bring it into the country much more easily. The American gets his gold and the counterfeiter get a premium price for his bullion. Coin collectors get a headache and years later families are disappointed to learn that grampa's family heirloom keepsake is just worth bullion and not the high values shown in the coin books.

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u

[CHABSENTIA]

Except that bullion was $35.00 then and $900.00 today

[Conder101]

Except that bullion was $35.00 then and $900.00 today

And minimum wage was $0.35 and hour then and over $7 and hour now. (And todays $7 buys less than the .35 did then. Closer in actual purchasing power would be $9 an hour. Hey notice in both cases, gold at 100 times minimum wage.)

[CHABSENTIA]

My point was that the Grandchildren or Great Grand children that were referred to and inherited the coin/s would receive a Melt Value of $900;00 per coin. If they had received 100 of these coins then they would have received $ $90,000.00

 

 

I could care less about the minimum wage etc at the time the Coin was purchased. One of my Fathers Stock purchases was Exxon . He purchased 1000 shares at 50 some time ago. Even though he sold some for other investments the remaining Stock that is left is worth $300,000.00 after Splits etc.

 

 

The minimum wage or other Prices at the time are not a factor. $90,000.00 or $300,0000 are $90,000.00 and $300,000 .00 today. If the Bullion purhase factor was $35.00 then and was still $35.00 today then you have a signifcant decrease in value due to the erosion of Purchasing power.

 

Those same 100 coins would be then worth $3500.00 which is not a big deal. I realize that a million dollars today is not worth a million dollars in purchasing power even compared to twenty years ago but I would not complain about it if somebody gave me a million dollars or I won it in a Lottery and the post did refer to the Granchildren etc receiving the Counterfeit coins. If the Grand children received these 100 Bullion coins and upon finding they were Counterfeit disposed of them all for $500.00 then this would be a different matter.

 

 

[BULLY]

Wow, had me fooled.

 

At first I thought the answer was obvious, and that it should have read "Twenty D." instead of "Twenty Dollars" but I pulled out "ye olde Red Book" and saw that the Double Eagle design changed mid-run and went from Twenty D. to Twenty Dollars, starting in 1877, through 1907 -- so much for that theory.

 

 

[PerryHall]

This counterfeit is not particularly deceptive. Most collectors could spot this coin as a counterfeit if it were laying next to a genuine coin of the same type. There are newer counterfeit gold coins out there that are far more deceptive that require an expert using a stereo microscope to authenticate it. Be careful buying raw gold coins!!!

[stinkycheese1]

There are newer counterfeit gold coins out there that are far more deceptive that require an expert using a stereo microscope to authenticate it. Be careful buying raw gold coins!!!

 

Perryhall, that is frightening. Do grading services such as PCGS, NGC and ANACS have such equipment? Would they be able to spot these progressively better counterfeits?

 

[MunkyMan95]

There are newer counterfeit gold coins out there that are far more deceptive that require an expert using a stereo microscope to authenticate it. Be careful buying raw gold coins!!!

 

Perryhall, that is frightening. Do grading services such as PCGS, NGC and ANACS have such equipment? Would they be able to spot these progressively better counterfeits?

 

[sarcasm] Nope. The industry leaders in Grading and Counterfeit Detection have no such equipment that would enable them to accurately detect forgeries, or to follow trends in counterfeiting technologies.[/sarcasm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The TPG's are very good at their jobs Kevin. They get paid well for what they do, and they try and remain a step ahead of counterfeiters. They detect counterfeits with various pieces of equipment, and experts behind the eyepieces.

[stinkycheese1]

There are newer counterfeit gold coins out there that are far more deceptive that require an expert using a stereo microscope to authenticate it. Be careful buying raw gold coins!!!

 

Perryhall, that is frightening. Do grading services such as PCGS, NGC and ANACS have such equipment? Would they be able to spot these progressively better counterfeits?

 

[sarcasm] Nope. The industry leaders in Grading and Counterfeit Detection have no such equipment that would enable them to accurately detect forgeries, or to follow trends in counterfeiting technologies.[/sarcasm]

 

 

The TPG's are very good at their jobs Kevin. They get paid well for what they do, and they try and remain a step ahead of counterfeiters. They detect counterfeits with various pieces of equipment, and experts behind the eyepieces.

 

 

Thanks munkyman . I was wondering if they had equipment. I'll admit,perryhall had me a bit worried there. , but this helps. (thumbs u

 

 

[Pirate119-migration]

Comparing the counterfeit with a picture of one from my collection is revealing. See attached.

[Pirate119-migration]

Here are the obverses:

[stinkycheese1]

Pirate119, what differences could you spot from the counterfeit vs the real one?

 

[Pirate119-migration]

I'm no expert, by any means, but here is what strikes (pun not intended) me most:

 

Obverse: Position and style of the date - Counterfit has a straight date; while the real McCoy's date rather gently follows the curve of the coin.

 

Reverse: Seems different devices are struck more boldly in the counterfit. (I think this is what causes people to say, it "looks funny"). For example the shield, and the eagle's tailfeathers, look like they are laying on top of the coin in the counterfit the way they are struck. These devices blend nicely into the design of the real one.

 

I'm sure if I had better photography skills, differences in the lettering, details etc. would be more clear.