Precious metals in a safety deposit box question

[spinner73-migration]

Hi everyone,

Im new to the world of collecting and recently inherited some St. Gaudens gold and have also purchased some platinum coins that i have put in a bank safety deposit box. I have heard through the grapevine that s.d.b.'s are not safe from the U.S. Patriot Act 1 & 2 because the government can seize precious metals stored in banks. Is this info accurate? If s.d.b.'s aren't practical, do most collectors have Brinks or the like hold their metals? I would like to know your opinions on this matter. Thank you!

[MunkyMan95]

As far as I know, technically that information is accurate. But the likelihood of such an event happening would be very small, miniscule.

[TomB]

I have not looked into the provisions of the Patriot Act, but keep in mind two things; the first is that no one has to know what is in a safe deposit box aside from the owner of the box and the second is the likelihood of such a seizure.

[Just Bob]

Welcome to ye olde forum, Spinner. You have come to the right place for information.

As much as I distrust "Big Brother", I have to agree that the likely hood of your coins being confiscated is slim. On the other hand, events can change, and if the wrong people are elected to office, I may have to rethink my position.

 

BTW, we would love to see pictures if you'd care to show them to us.

[World Colonial]

This event is currently remote and in my opinion, will remain so for the foreseeable future. But if you are really worried about that, the only real alternative you have is to store any metals you want to own outside the United States. If a gold recall occurs as it did in 1933, there is no assurance that Brinks or anyone else would not be covered by it and if they are, you are absolutely guaranteed that they will comply with it.

 

Currently, there are two events that I could see triggering a gold recall. The first is a run on the US Dollar which I believe WILL happen and should roughly coincide with the end of the US Dollar as the world reserve currency. Since no country can last forever as the leading military and economic power, the status of the US Dollar as the reserve currency must end. That is inevitable. However, the decline which I anticipate is not inevitable and should be the continuing result of the complete INCOMPETENT currency management of the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury since 1913 when the FRB was created.

 

The other scenario that comes to mind is related to the PATRIOT ACT. Gold is one of the few forms of liquid wealth that is not under the direct control of any government and is subject to use as a terrorist financing mechanism. I could see the day when the US Government could use this as a reason (bogus or otherwise) to outlaw public ownership and this could be extended to other non-financial tangible assets as well.

 

[stinkycheese1]

This event is currently remote and in my opinion, will remain so for the foreseeable future. But if you are really worried about that, the only real alternative you have is to store any metals you want to own outside the United States. If a gold recall occurs as it did in 1933, there is no assurance that Brinks or anyone else would not be covered by it and if they are, you are absolutely guaranteed that they will comply with it.

 

Currently, there are two events that I could see triggering a gold recall. The first is a run on the US Dollar which I believe WILL happen and should roughly coincide with the end of the US Dollar as the world reserve currency. Since no country can last forever as the leading military and economic power, the status of the US Dollar as the reserve currency must end. That is inevitable. However, the decline which I anticipate is not inevitable and should be the continuing result of the complete INCOMPETENT currency management of the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury since 1913 when the FRB was created.

 

The other scenario that comes to mind is related to the PATRIOT ACT. Gold is one of the few forms of liquid wealth that is not under the direct control of any government and is subject to use as a terrorist financing mechanism. I could see the day when the US Government could use this as a reason (bogus or otherwise) to outlaw public ownership and this could be extended to other non-financial tangible assets as well.

 

World colonial, if the gold recall did happen, would you have to give up gold coins that have numismatic value? (Like a MS64 saint?)

 

 

[michael]

riches are thorns

[BillJones]

I'd say your risk of the having your coins seized by the government is FAR lower than having your collection stolen because you have it in your house where a crook can get at it.

 

If the government officials have any smarts at all (and I known that sometimes I’m going out on a limb to make that statement) they will not abuse the Patriot Act. If they started abusing the privileges granted there, the opponents of the act would have lots of fuel to do away with it, and the conservatives who have advocated it would not have a political leg to stand on.

 

There are some very bad people in this world who don’t deserve any sympathy. If they are alien nationals they don’t deserve the same protections that are afforded to U.S. citizens when it comes to investigating terrorist activity. I know I’ll catch flak for writing that, but this a war, and wars call for different measures.

 

[jackson64]

I'm the farthest thing from an alarmist...I don't ever foresee the government breaking into your SDB but strange things have happened..remember just last year that officials showed up at a major coin convention and took an entire collection of gold coins that were recovered from the ?SS Central??? shipwreck...not to mention the way the US mint treated that family who had possesion of the 10 1933 Saints...

[jtryka]

It's all a matter of odds, but if things start to look like they are spiraling out of control and gold starts moving $100+ per day, then I would likely move everything out of the safe deposit boxes except the paper items and modern base metal coins. Then I'd just bury them somewhere for later retrieval. In any case, you are no safer with a third party storage arrangement than a safe deposit box as those companies will always comply with the feds. The good news is that should they ever do another 33-style confiscation, they will go after the big boys first, and come after your few saints later (and if there are clueless bank employees, or corrupt ones, you can probably still get your coins out before the feds crash the party!

[Conder101]

World colonial, if the gold recall did happen, would you have to give up gold coins that have numismatic value? (Like a MS64 saint?)

It would all depend on how they word the recall order. Remember the original 1933 gold recall order did not exempt gold coins with numismatic value. That provision was added later.

[BillJones]

World colonial, if the gold recall did happen, would you have to give up gold coins that have numismatic value? (Like a MS64 saint?)

It would all depend on how they word the recall order. Remember the original 1933 gold recall order did not exempt gold coins with numismatic value. That provision was added later.

 

I think the stuff would really hit the fan if the government tried to confiscate gold at this point. Remember the 1933 order was during the Great Depression, and the attitudes of a lot of people were a lot different toward the government. People respected those in government from local to national office.

 

Today a politician would not be able to pull a stunt like FDR did. People figured the country was going down the toilet and FDR was offering them hope. Today the "me" generations are not going to buy in to that.

[jesbroken]

Another issue with safety deposit boxes, a relative died suddenly and when his wife went to retrieve the contents the bank held them until an IRS representative was there to go through the contents for tax purposes. They were not gentle with valuation and it was nearly a year before it was settled. Even though inheritance taxes are a legal tax I feel this was over the top for our government.

[RI AL]

It is so frustrating and I can relate. I had an inheritance from my high school Music teacher and 1 of the 7 accounts that was liquidated refused to release the funds until the executor, anout 95 years old...provided an "EIN". No one knew what an EIN was (Employee Identification Number) and all of the other 6 accounts had no problems at all. It took over a year...and of course, the lawyers stepped in to screw things up worse.

 

You are lucky that you finally got the assets. I have family whose spouses have died and the safe deposit box was sealed for years! Just what a widow/widower needs.

 

 

[World Colonial]

In this case, do you know if these other people had access to the box? I have someone else who is included on the account (on the signature card) and I would expect that either of us could access the box if one of us were no longer around.

[jesbroken]

Yes, it does not matter-my aunt had access to the box as well. The bank is forced to close the access and its up to the others to prove which is theirs and his(in this case).

[Conder101]

That's why when someone dies the first order of business is to clean out the safe deposit box before the bank learns of the death and seals the box. Good idea to move funds out of joint accounts too. Sometimes they freeze the whole account, sometimes they will allow the joint owner to have half of it.

[jackson64]

this has turned into a very good thread..some serious issues here that I had not considered...thank you

[MikeKing]

This event is currently remote and in my opinion, will remain so for the foreseeable future. But if you are really worried about that, the only real alternative you have is to store any metals you want to own outside the United States. If a gold recall occurs as it did in 1933, there is no assurance that Brinks or anyone else would not be covered by it and if they are, you are absolutely guaranteed that they will comply with it.

 

Currently, there are two events that I could see triggering a gold recall. The first is a run on the US Dollar which I believe WILL happen and should roughly coincide with the end of the US Dollar as the world reserve currency. Since no country can last forever as the leading military and economic power, the status of the US Dollar as the reserve currency must end. That is inevitable. However, the decline which I anticipate is not inevitable and should be the continuing result of the complete INCOMPETENT currency management of the Federal Reserve and the US Treasury since 1913 when the FRB was created.

 

The other scenario that comes to mind is related to the PATRIOT ACT. Gold is one of the few forms of liquid wealth that is not under the direct control of any government and is subject to use as a terrorist financing mechanism. I could see the day when the US Government could use this as a reason (bogus or otherwise) to outlaw public ownership and this could be extended to other non-financial tangible assets as well.

 

World colonial, if the gold recall did happen, would you have to give up gold coins that have numismatic value? (Like a MS64 saint?)

 

 

only those dated 1933

[spinner73-migration]

Wow, you've all given me a lot of things to think about! Thank you very much!

[RWB]

Re: Access to safe deposit boxes. Banks normally restrict access only to the persons listed on the rental agreement and who have a signature on file. If the decedent was the sole owner of the box, it would be sealed until the estate’s executor or PR showed up with court authorization. A power of attorney would not be sufficient.

 

During 1932 the Hoover administration tried to stop people from hoarding gold coin and gold certificates. Other than a big PR campaign that ultimately failed, their primary approach was to track, by name, everyone who requested gold coin in more than nominal amounts from their bank and did not redeposit the gold. In parallel with this, banks and safe deposit associations were required to provide lists of all new box renters. The Treasury (under Sec. Ogden Mills), then matched gold withdrawals against safe deposit box rentals to identify potential hoarders.

 

Hoover toyed with the idea of going off the gold standard in July 1932, but was talked out of it by Mills and others. In December 1932 – February 1933, treasury agents interviewed several individuals and business owners who had withdrawn large amounts of gold coin, but not deposited an equivalent amount at a later date. The hoarding suspects were required to show what happened to the gold and prove that it had been legitimately used for business purchases. Although hoarding of gold was not illegal, it was contrary to Hoover’s policies. Treasury, with the cooperation of banks, maintained their tracking system through February 1933.

 

When the Roosevelt administration called for gold to be returned to the Treasury, it also limited the hoarding period to February 1, 1933 forward and used lists compiled only from that date through April 7. The March 9 anti-hoarding executive order produced most of the gold collected during the next year. On investigation, many of the hoarders turned out to be foreign nationals hoping to make a big profit on dollar devaluation. They assumed the executive orders applied only to citizens, but most quickly learned otherwise. Most of the American citizen hoards – largely from bank boxes – were only a few thousand dollars. However, wealthy people were able to export gold coin and store it in another country, thereby circumventing anti-hoarding rules.

 

The above worked because banks cooperated in tracking monetary gold (coin and paper currency), and in providing names of new safe deposit box renters. The first part of this has been nearly impossible since 1974, and the latter won’t show people who have had boxes for a long time. With gold and silver no longer having any monetary role, it would seem pointless to risk huge social disruption by trying to confiscate it. Might as well confiscate your stock of “Slim-Jims.”

 

[RI AL]

Regarding the "joint account" question (I know we're off coins)...but my understanding is that if an account, like a home, are in joint ownership the "survivor" would have clear access to any and all accounts upon which his/her name appears. An earlier reply suggested there could be some tie ups. Need more info.

 

RI AL

[World Colonial]

Aside from the PATRIOT ACT link that I mentioned earlier, I see a couple of motivations why a gold recall MIGHT occur.

 

If a run were to occur on the US Dollar, the US Government might outlaw gold ownership simply in an attemt to pre-empt US Dollar holders from having another alternative to use as a store of value substitute. I would expect it to fail (of course) but that does not mean that government will not act in an arbitrary, counter productive and irrational manner given the pure populist demagoguery of modern politics.

 

This is evident in the desire of some quarters (mainly exporters) to have further depreciation in the exchange value of the US Dollar versus foreign currencies. It might help them but I am not aware of any country that has ever depreciated its way to prosperity and that would be even more true of a country like the US which has a gaping balance of trade deficit.

 

If this did happen, I would expect it to co-incide with foreign exchange controls. Another possibility is that in a desperate case, the US (or other countries) might temporarily need gold to back the currency. I do not think this latter case will happen no matter how much the Dollar loses its value, but I have read the writings of others who consider this a possibility.

 

As for foreign exchange controls, I consider them a virtual certainty in the future, which is why I consider it prudent to have some money outside the US financial system.

[cressjl-migration]

...If a run were to occur on the US Dollar, ...

It wasn't too many years ago that a lot of US unscrupulous investors speculated on other nations' currencies, driving those nations into bankruptcy; e.g., Russia, Chile, Singapore, etc.

 

I wouldn't be expecting too much sympathy if the tables ever get turned!

[RWB]

Speculative pressure (principally from Belgium in the 30s !) against the dollar from late 1929 to mid-1933 was one of several things that reinforced the severity of the Great Depression. With major currencies all tied to a fixed gold price, speculators could easily force one country or another to sell or buy gold to stabilize their own currency. It was only after FDR cut the gold umbilical and told speculators to do whatever they wanted because the US was not playing their game anymore, that they moved on to focus on ruining other currencies – France was the next big target.

[MorganMan]

Safe deposit access after a death is a state thing. Some states require the bank to seal them, NOT the feds.

 

I have had 2 deaths in my family, and all that is needed is the probates papers allowing executors access to the deceased items...

 

I have done it twice.

 

I do know there are a few northern states that require the box sealed until the "rev'enoors" get there from the state....

 

MM

[BULLY]

 

For the record, I am not aware of that portion of The Patriot Act, so I cannot comment on that. That's something about which I might lobby my Congressman and Senators. I mean, it's right up there with the fact that Sudafed and other over-the-counter decongestants are regulated under The Patriot Act, but I digress.

 

The BIGGER ISSUE with storing coins in Safe Deposit Boxes is multi-fold:

 

1. Safe Deposit Boxes are not insured like regular bank deposits. While thefts may be unusual, they DO occur, as do natural disasters (think LOTS of bank branches that were washed away during the flooding of New Orleans a few years ago. Do you think your coins would have been safe in THOSE safe deposit boxes?

 

Therefore, INSURANCE is very important for coin collections even when coins are kept in safe deposit boxes. Adding riders to your existing homeowners insurance is generally not practical because they know nothing about coins or will charge EXORBITANT amounts (also because they know nothing about coins).

 

The American Numismatic Association (ANA) has a deal to offer insurance coverage SPECIFICALLY on coin collections. You MUST be an ANA member. It is through Hugh Wood Agency, and the policy is with AXA, a large well-rated company. Rates are a fraction of what your homeowners is likely to charge, but it never hurts to check. Policies also vary on whether you want coverage for coins stored in your home, or in a vault (or both) such as coins stored in a safe deposit box -- so you can save money by electing the lower level of coverage. If you are an ANA member, go to www.money.org for information and a link.

 

Obviously, you need to know what coins you have to demonstrate them in the event of a loss. However, this company only requires that you schedule individual numismatic items in excess of $10,000. So, it's nice that you don't have to rush and give them a list of coins except rare ones that are individually valued over $10k.

 

2. Other topics to be concerned about with Safe Deposit Boxes are humidity/and climate control. Be sure the safe deposit box room is dry (some basement locations can be damp).

 

3. Some numismatists store their coins at home, in safes, or in rooms with electronic protection (or both). If you look for safes, try to decide what size you need, than DOUBLE IT. A safe is a large investment, and it is generally far less expensive to up-size than to buy a second safe later. If you are curious about home safes, I would encourage you to read about them at http://www.libertysafe.com/

Costco carries some Liberty Safe varieties, and you can likely find a local dealer so you can touch and feel them, and often get a better deal than buying from the factory (odd as that seems).

 

4. A good rule is not to discuss where you keep your collection, as it should be no one's business but your own. Some collectors opt to get a post office box for delivery of coin publications and so forth, so as not to alert prying eyes that there is a coin collector and thus potential valuables in the house.

 

It all may sound paranoid, but read just a blurb in an article from an older couple in the most recent issue of the ANA magazine, The Numismatist, and the couple talk about keeping their childhood coin collections stored at their parents' home. Father was robbed at gunpoint, collection stolen.

 

How and when most break-ins occur is described here: http://www.libertysafe.com/homesecurity.lasso?page=2

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

[BULLY]

 

 

I guess this could vary on state, but in my experience, Alaska and Connecticut, as long as a box has an additional signature on it, the additional signature is considered an OWNER of the box and can still access the box in the event of a co-owner's death.

 

Best advice: Check with a probate attorney in your state/commonwealth.

 

It could also depend exactly HOW you checked off the signature cards on the box when it was opened.

 

Just like someone said, this is off topic a bit, but just like on the bank accounts, some can be truly "joint" in which case banking laws give a co-owner with rights of survivorship FULL ACCESS to any money in the account and can DRAIN IT DRY (legally).

 

There are P.O.D. accounts (essentially, where you name a beneficiary on your bank account, so the person named does not have access to the money until after your demise, and then, will have to provide the necessary documentation, though generally it is just a death certificate if they are already listed as a beneficiary for this type of account. Not all banks/financial institutions offer them, but many do -- also varies by state.

 

What three documents should everyone have?

 

1. A will (not "the" most important)

2. A Living Revocable Trust (even when your lawyer says you don't need it and that it's only for "rich people") - WAY more important than a will

3. A "Living Will"

 

OK, this is WAY off topic of the safe deposit -- my other one posting was much more pertinent. Who got me going off on this tangent?

 

:signofftopic:

[TomB]

There is nothing wrong with being prepared, BULLY. (thumbs u

[CHABSENTIA]

I do not need to be signed in for my Safety Deposit Box. Legally the Bank is allowed to have two keys. What they do is break off their key in the slot. I can go in any time of day that the Bank is open and go to my Safety Deposit Box and unlock it and carry it to a room etc.

 

No sign ins. No Nothing.