Happy Holidays: Blood Bath at ANACS

[gmarguli]

I was waiting to post this and more until I had some more information, but since it has partly been posted ATS, here goes:

 

All the ANACS graders and support staff were fired today. FIRED! Every single one. The company was being packed up and moved to Colorado. James Taylor (Ex-ICG?, EX-ANACS, Ex-ICG) did the firing. Odd, since he had worked for ICG which is also in Colorado. He is supposedly the new owner of ANACS.

 

There was some low volume chatter that the current ANACS owners were less than thrilled with their results with ANACS. It doesn't appear that they ever achieved the goals many people thought they were shooting for, even though there appears to have been a very substantial investment in the company. I also know that some ANACS employees were not happy with the current owners "attitude".

 

There had been some strong rumors that a 5th TPG was planning on coming onto the market sometime in 2008. I have some suspicion this change at ANACS is related, but do not feel it would be appropriate to post these rumors until I confirm with some other people.

 

We're going to see some major lawsuits involving some prominent people flying back and forth. Trust me, it's going to get very ugly.

 

 

[TomB]

In the grand scheme of things the TPG doesn't matter, but these are people's lives that have just been turned upside-down.

[MikeInFL]

If you had to guess, Greg, what is the basis for the litigation?

[Dcoin]

Spitballing….. could it be that ICG and ANACS are merging?

[physics-fan3.14]

Wow. That's pretty crazy. There's been some big shakeups in the TPG business this year, with CAC, PCI, and now ANACS.

[gmarguli]

If you had to guess, Greg, what is the basis for the litigation?

 

The lifeblood of a TPG is its graders. You can easily replace support staff, but not the graders.

 

I'm just connecting the dots in my mind...

• You used to work for a TPG in Colorado. I don't know the exact date, but perhaps you worked for this TPG very recently. So recently that many people thought that you still worked there!
  
• You just purchased a rival TPG.
  
• You just fired all the graders at this TPG. This is a odd thing to do unless you have plans for hiring other qualified graders.
  
• You're moving this TPG to a different state, coincidentally Colorado.
  
• You need graders. Lots of graders. A full set of graders. Graders who would want to live in Colorado. Ideally, graders who have some trust in you, perhaps worked with you in the past. Where oh where oh where could you get these graders from? hm

I'm not saying any of this is happening or going to happen or has happened. I'm just connecting the dots in my mind.

[gmarguli]

Spitballing….. could it be that ICG and ANACS are merging?

 

As far as I know, both these services were recently sold to different people, so I wouldn't count on it. I'm betting on a head to head confrontation with some ugliness coming out pretty soon.

[MikeInFL]

If you had to guess, Greg, what is the basis for the litigation?

 

The lifeblood of a TPG is its graders. You can easily replace support staff, but not the graders.

 

I'm just connecting the dots in my mind...

• You used to work for a TPG in Colorado. I don't know the exact date, but perhaps you worked for this TPG very recently. So recently that many people thought that you still worked there!
  
• You just purchased a rival TPG.
  
• You just fired all the graders at this TPG. This is a odd thing to do unless you have plans for hiring other qualified graders.
  
• You're moving this TPG to a different state, coincidentally Colorado.
  
• You need graders. Lots of graders. A full set of graders. Graders who would want to live in Colorado. Ideally, graders who have some trust in you, perhaps worked with you in the past. Where oh where oh where could you get these graders from? hm

I'm not saying any of this is happening or going to happen or has happened. I'm just connecting the dots in my mind.

 

I think I understand what you are getting at. That said, unless the graders had some sort of non-compete clause, I'm not sure I see a basis for litigation. But I am not a lawyer either.

 

Should be interesting though....

[gmarguli]

I think I understand what you are getting at. That said, unless the graders had some sort of non-compete clause, I'm not sure I see a basis for litigation. But I am not a lawyer either.

 

Should be interesting though....

 

Again, I'm not saying that this has happened or that it is going to happen, but it's what I personally speculate might happen based on what I have seen so far.

 

If it were to happen, I would guess the main thing to look at is what happened and when (i.e. was it on the company's payroll). While you may not be able to prevent an employee from switching to another company, an employer might have some action if an employee pilfered your employees/customers/trade secrets/etc while working for you. As a non-lawyer, I suspect that courts/juries might take a dim view of something like that happening.

 

However, if my prediction does come true, I would suspect that the people involved had run it by their lawyers first. I know I would.

 

With ANACS probably expected to be up and running in a few days, it won't be long before we see where the graders and support staff come from. Maybe James fired all the graders as a negotiating tactic and will make them offers 1/3 less than their current salary if they move to Colorado?

[chinook]

You dont need a reason to fire someone.

 

What a great opportunity for PCGS to fill ANACS's niche and start slabbing problem coins.

[jesbroken]

In 1936, a failing candy company called Loft Candy owned most of the counter rights in drug stores(leading seller of soda pop) across the U.S. A president of Loft Candy, Mr. Guth, bought another failing company called Pepsi Cola and used the power of Loft Candy to force the brand in the drug stores and Coca Cola out. In one year Pepsi's sales shot through the roof, profits exploded and it became a major player in the soft drink world. In a landmark lawsuit battle that lasted two years, Loft won full ownership of Pepsi Cola because employees were taken and used by Guth and the name/power of Loft Candy utilized to build Pepsi Cola. Guth lost everything.

So, Greg, you could be right according to what and when things happened as to the ugliness that could prevail. Thanks for the headsup re:ANACS.

[123cents]

Spitballing….. could it be that ICG and ANACS are merging?

 

No, I don't think so because it has been reported that James Taylor has left ICG.

[MikeKing]

I would think that James Taylor is doing something good for ANACS as ANACS had gone down the tubes so far as I am concerned.

[stinkycheese1]

Holy , this is bad news. ANACS is america's oldest grading company, what would happen without it?

 

[bsshog40]

As far as I know, as Chinook stated, ANACS are the only TPG that grades problem coins. I don't see the Top Two doing this. This might be an end also for authenticating Non-problemfree coins.

[MAULEMALL]

I would think that James Taylor is doing something good for ANACS as ANACS had gone down the tubes so far as I am concerned.

Some of us think that Mr. Taylor is the actual reason ANACs went down the tubes.

[chinook]

As far as I know, as Chinook stated, ANACS are the only TPG that grades problem coins. I don't see the Top Two doing this. This might be an end also for authenticating Non-problemfree coins.

 

NCS, an arm of NGC, will also slab problem coins.

[bsshog40]

As far as I know, as Chinook stated, ANACS are the only TPG that grades problem coins. I don't see the Top Two doing this. This might be an end also for authenticating Non-problemfree coins.

 

NCS, an arm of NGC, will also slab problem coins.

 

But now you will have to pay dues to get that done.

[MikeKing]

I would think that James Taylor is doing something good for ANACS as ANACS had gone down the tubes so far as I am concerned.

Some of us think that Mr. Taylor is the actual reason ANACs went down the tubes.

 

I guess that's possible also

[pendragon1998]

Haven't read the thread yet, but this one gets my vote for BEST THREAD TITLE for December

 

EDIT: Read it. whoa.

[rbrown4]

This news and the information posted is very interesting and I will be interested to hear/see more about this. In the meantime, I do have a concern which may or may not be legitimate. Over the past year as I have been going through our collection, (and learning what cleaned coins were) I sent several coins to ANACS for one or two reasons. To authenticate gold coins that had been cleaned, and I also sent in some key coins that I suspected had been cleaned to save me the cost of NGC grading resulting in body bag. A couple of very key coins came back graded from ANACS fine, are these grades now going to be suspect in the "market".

 

One was a 1932 D Washington Quarter that came back MS 64

 

Thanks Rey,

[gmarguli]

No. The ANACS brand will likely retain the same stature that it currently does. It's gone thru several changes over the years and survived just fine.

[DC Dawg]

As far as I know, as Chinook stated, ANACS are the only TPG that grades problem coins. I don't see the Top Two doing this. This might be an end also for authenticating Non-problemfree coins.

 

NCS, an arm of NGC, will also slab problem coins.

 

But now you will have to pay dues to get that done.

I believe that if you are an ANA member, you can apply for a direct submission account without paying for a membership. HOWEVER, you do not get the serial number lookup and status tracking with an ANA submission.

 

As for ANACS, I thought it was James Taylor who moved ANACS to Austin before he left for ICG? When did he return/buy ANACS? What happens to coins at ANACS waiting to be graded?

 

Scott

[MikeKing]

I think that they should go back to their old holder.

 

oh...and look what I found!!! (from heritage archives 2002)

 

[CHABSENTIA]

I haven't seen this ANACS News anywhere else. I know that ANACS is presently located in Texas. It is one thing to quit as the Employer either has Notice or doesn't have it.

 

Wven in the case of a few weeks Notice there is no guarantee that the Employer could get adequate replacements in two weeks time.

 

Firings are a different deal.The Employer may consider getting rid of an employee for many reasons but to fire all of them would require some sort of planning except in an Emergency situation in most cases.

 

Usually but not always if there is a Merger there are some valuable employees that they want to keep. The fact that all of the Support Staff and Graders were fired at once makes me think that this was already in the works and that there are replacements.Since it was probably in the works for some time then it was most likely decided to do it after Christmas since it could have been done before it.

 

I would also think that that this had been run past a Legal team etc.

 

I know that there is a Lawsuit regarding ANA and that the Board of Directors fired the Executive Director and that many on the Board were not happy about the Lawsuit and that the precious Legal team was fired and that the New team can't get the necessary records from the old Legal team because it claims it hasn't been paid. and the Courts has given ANA an extension.

[James_OldeTowne]

Quoted from ATS:

 

Out of 224 "MS-70" coins listed on eBay right now, 1 is ANACS, 28 are ICG, 29 are PCGS, 135 are NGC.

Out of 484 "MS70" coins listed on eBay right now, 0 are ANACS, 27 are ICG, 114 are PCGS, 314 are NGC.

 

Out of 269 "PR70" coins listed on eBay right now, 0 are ANACS, 116 are ICG, 101 are PCGS, 33 are NGC.

Out of 50 "PR-70" coins listed on eBay right now, 0 are ANACS, 9 are ICG, 14 are PCGS, 22 are NGC.

 

Out of 269 "PF70" coins listed on eBay right now, 1 is ANACS, 3 are ICG, 4 are PCGS, 578 are NGC.

Out of 210 "PF-70" coins listed on eBay right now, 1 is ANACS, 4 are ICG, 4 are PCGS, 170 are NGC.

 

Totals for all "70" grades (MS, PR, & PF):

 

ANACS: 3

ICG: 187

PCGS: 266

NGC: 1,252

 

I think the numbers speak for themselves.

 

They sure do! They tell me that NGC is #1 by far!

[MAULEMALL]

Quoted from ATS:

 

Out of 224 "MS-70" coins listed on eBay right now, 1 is ANACS, 28 are ICG, 29 are PCGS, 135 are NGC.

Out of 484 "MS70" coins listed on eBay right now, 0 are ANACS, 27 are ICG, 114 are PCGS, 314 are NGC.

 

Out of 269 "PR70" coins listed on eBay right now, 0 are ANACS, 116 are ICG, 101 are PCGS, 33 are NGC.

Out of 50 "PR-70" coins listed on eBay right now, 0 are ANACS, 9 are ICG, 14 are PCGS, 22 are NGC.

 

Out of 269 "PF70" coins listed on eBay right now, 1 is ANACS, 3 are ICG, 4 are PCGS, 578 are NGC.

Out of 210 "PF-70" coins listed on eBay right now, 1 is ANACS, 4 are ICG, 4 are PCGS, 170 are NGC.

 

Totals for all "70" grades (MS, PR, & PF):

 

ANACS: 3

ICG: 187

PCGS: 266

NGC: 1,252

 

I think the numbers speak for themselves.

 

They sure do! They tell me that NGC is #1 by far!

pcgs has always had to artificially fudge their numbers to maintain their imagined status.

Self delusion is pretty comical to watch.

 

[CHABSENTIA]

Again it depends on the situation,.If one has a Morgan with a certain VAM that makes it a great deal more valuable then ANACS will put the Vam on the Label for $5.00 if you specify it. If you are not sure then ANACS will research the Vam and out it on the label for $10.00 if it exists.

 

NGC will only note the VAM if it is a hot 50 or top 100. While NCS will note a scratched coin or a cleaned coin etc . ANACS will do it readily.

 

On Teletrade I regularly see scratched or damaged or cleaned coins in ANACS olders but in several months I have only seen one in a NCS Holder.I would say that ANACS has become the TPG mostly for these types of coins . I saw a coin in a ANACS holder last week on Teletrade that had been cleaned.It was one of the 1893 Morgan dates and was the only 1893 offered.

[Coin]

I'm not a lawyer , but am I wrong to guess that for a comapny to lock down all it's previous contracts for stuff like health care and retirements , they would have to dissolve or something....then to re-organize and come back under the same name with different operational supplements and employee stuff , they could basically re-hire all the former emplyees and start all over again , but more streamlined with out all the old agreements that were passed down everytime the company was sold before?

[just-john]

It would take no planing if people who worked there didn't notice things were be packed up sorry for them. I wouldn't fire anybody move the company from TX to CO if they don't show up for work.I would only say that I guess they quit.No "liability" no increase in unemployment insurance since your in another state . Smart move when now they don't have to have people in TX pay sales tax since their not in TX anymore .Moving from a state with 20 million people to one with 4 million