WHEN do you consider it AT'd ???

[jackson64]

Do you consider any help in advancing toning to be ATing?...For example, what if an original, white, lustrous Franklin was placed between the pages of a book from the early 1900's and then the book was subsequently placed in a high sunshine window?...It may take months but it would tone...if this is considered "natural" toning...what are your parameters for a coin being natural vs artificial...

[bsshog40]

What takes months should take years is the way I look at NT & AT. If the process can be rapidly progressed, and the natural toning not being able to takes it's original course, then I would still consider this AT. It may still be market acceptable and still look nice, but still AT.

[James_OldeTowne]

I hate to say it, but it's only artificial if it "looks" artificial. If you can't discern the toning from "natural", then it is as good as natural.

[MunkyMan95]

There is no artificial toning. Only Market Acceptable toning.

[bsshog40]

I hate to say it, but it's only artificial if it "looks" artificial. If you can't discern the toning from "natural", then it is as good as natural.

 

I agree with you james but if you know you are AT'ing a coin, it is AT. Whether anyone else realizes it or not is a different perspective altogether.

[MarkFeld]

Do you consider any help in advancing toning to be ATing?...For example, what if an original, white, lustrous Franklin was placed between the pages of a book from the early 1900's and then the book was subsequently placed in a high sunshine window?...It may take months but it would tone...if this is considered "natural" toning...what are your parameters for a coin being natural vs artificial...

There is nothing even approaching universal agreement on this topic. Some people consider intent, while others don't. Some think it matters if an otherwise slow "natural" process was hurried along, accidentally or otherwise. Some consider whether a coin is stored in an environment intended for coin storage or not. Some care what the TPG's think and some don't, etc.

[MikeInFL]

In my opinion, if the intent is there to tone the coins (i.e. "helping') more rapidly than they would normally, they are AT.

 

If the intent is not there and the coins are stored in methods consistent with long-term storage, they are NT.

 

The grey area is if the coins are stored in a long-term environment with the intent to tone.

 

All that said, I do not think there is a clear distinguishing factor, but that is not reason enough to stop trying to make the distinction...Mike

[jesbroken]

People do not usually impart their intent, unless water boarding is utilized. If it is fugly, then it's AT; if it attractive, then it's NT. JMO

[MikeInFL]

Really? How about the difference between manslaughter & murder? How about the difference between lying & being misinformed? Intent does matter (at least to me).

[gmarguli]

[MarkFeld]

Greg, why did you show a picture of a cat running away from its tail?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jesbroken]

Mike,

Just exactly how do you get someone to impart their intent? Just walk up and ask them? Whether they be murderers, liars or coin doctors, I figure they might not tell you. Then what? You become judge and jury and proclaim their intent? That was my point. Intent is not easily proven.

[MikeInFL]

Thanks Jim, I didn't get that from your earlier post. I agree -- it ain't easy. Then again, most things worth doing aren't....Mike

[GDJMSP]

I would ask about 1 other specific scenario. Not that many years ago it was not widely known that storing coins in albums could create some beautiful toning. Today, it is widely known, at least among those who frequent the coin forums and read the numismatic press.

 

So what about the folks who make it a point to buy those old coin albums and place their coins in them - today ? The method of toning is exactly the same, the time frames may be a bit different depending on locality & climate. But essentially - it is the same.

 

Now, just because these folks know that these old albums can create some beautiful toning, and so they place their coins in them hoping to obtain that toning - obviously they have intent. But is the toning now AT because of that intent ?

 

And if we answer yes to this question, what must we then consider about the coins that came out of those albums in the past few decades ? Could they be AT as well because of intent ?

[MikeInFL]

 

Greg, why did you show a picture of a cat running away from its tail?

 

I believe the cat used to be copper...but it fell into a bottle of MS 70, turned blue, and has been running around in circles ever since.

[MikeInFL]

I would ask about 1 other specific scenario. Not that many years ago it was not widely known that storing coins in albums could create some beautiful toning. Today, it is widely known, at least among those who frequent the coin forums and read the numismatic press.

 

So what about the folks who make it a point to buy those old coin albums and place their coins in them - today ? The method of toning is exactly the same, the time frames may be a bit different depending on locality & climate. But essentially - it is the same.

 

Now, just because these folks know that these old albums can create some beautiful toning, and so they place their coins in them hoping to obtain that toning - obviously they have intent. But is the toning now AT because of that intent ?

 

And if we answer yes to this question, what must we then consider about the coins that came out of those albums in the past few decades ? Could they be AT as well because of intent ?

 

Oh, you're too smart for me. Please go back to your forum, thanks.

 

Seriously, that's a good point, and seems to be to be in the grey area. Part of me says I'd have to ignore intent in this case and focus on the results and methods. As long as they weren't "helped" and toned in a similar timeframe as unintentional toning then part of me would be OK with it.

 

But truly part of the appeal of an NT coin is that they weren't intentionally toned, they just happened like that. Just like the appeal of a natural diamond versus an artificial one -- even though you can't tell the difference there is a difference.

 

I guess it comes down to wanting the real thing, even if the "copies" are indistinguishable...Mike

[michael]

: WHEN do you consider it AT'd

 

show me a specific TONED COIN sight seen in my specialities AND THEN I CAN TELL YOU either AT or NT and then why

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I hate to say it, but it's only artificial if it "looks" artificial. If you can't discern the toning from "natural", then it is as good as natural.

 

I agree with you james but if you know you are AT'ing a coin, it is AT. Whether anyone else realizes it or not is a different perspective altogether.

Yep, I agree. And Greg's circling cat graphic is intensely apropos!

 

I currently have literally hundreds of coins in old albums that I've been stockpiling, and my intent (and hope) is that they will acquire magnificent colors and become much more valuable. You can call that "artificial toning" if you wish, but a lot of people sure seem to like it enough to pay strong premiums.

 

As an aside, actually, very few coins have progressed much, but there are a handful of pieces that seem like they are going to really take off.

[bsshog40]

I hate to say it, but it's only artificial if it "looks" artificial. If you can't discern the toning from "natural", then it is as good as natural.

 

I agree with you james but if you know you are AT'ing a coin, it is AT. Whether anyone else realizes it or not is a different perspective altogether.

Yep, I agree. And Greg's circling cat graphic is intensely apropos!

 

I currently have literally hundreds of coins in old albums that I've been stockpiling, and my intent (and hope) is that they will acquire magnificent colors and become much more valuable. You can call that "artificial toning" if you wish, but a lot of people sure seem to like it enough to pay strong premiums.

 

As an aside, actually, very few coins have progressed much, but there are a handful of pieces that seem like they are going to really take off.

I wouldn't call album toning AT myself. there are alot of coins that tone with storage.

[MarkFeld]

 

Greg, why did you show a picture of a cat running away from its tail?

 

I believe the cat used to be copper...but it fell into a bottle of MS 70, turned blue, and has been running around in circles ever since.

I'm embarrassed not to have picked up on that immediately - thanks

[jackson64]

the variance of opinions is exactly why I asked the question...everyone seems to hold exceptions to their answers...ex: "it's AT if intended...but if it's done on purpose with albums, that's different".....is time a factor? is it method? or intent?...I really am curious because I often see certain dealers with an inordinate amount of toned coins in their inventory...although they may be gradeable, I feel that they still are likely artificially toned...

[IGWT]

Natural toning forms on the surfaces of a coin as the result of gaseous compounds that are present in the ambient atmosphere where coins are placed (1) for purposes consistent with their intended use in commerce, or (2) for protective storage or display in a manner traditionally accepted by numismatists. Artificial toning forms on the surfaces of a coin by any process other than that which causes natural toning.

 

I figure that someone might eventually agree with me if I say it often enough.

[BillJones]

I hate to say it, but it's only artificial if it "looks" artificial. If you can't discern the toning from "natural", then it is as good as natural.

 

Yes that pretty well sums it up. If you can't tell that it's AT then it's no going to be called AT. And if you have a process that imparts natural looking toning on a coin over a period of several months to a number years, if it looks NT, it's NT.

 

The coin doctors are usually looking for a quick turnover. What they do usually takes a few minutes to apply, and quite often their work keeps going and going until the coin is totally ruined.

[MarkFeld]

Natural toning forms on the surfaces of a coin as the result of gaseous compounds that are present in the ambient atmosphere where coins are placed (1) for purposes consistent with their intended use in commerce, or (2) for protective storage or display in a manner traditionally accepted by numismatists. Artificial toning forms on the surfaces of a coin by any process other than that which causes natural toning.

 

I figure that someone might eventually agree with me if I say it often enough.

Lou, that is certainly as good as or better than any other attempt I have seen. And by the way, I felt the same way last time you said it, too. Nicely done! (thumbs u

[MikeInFL]

Natural toning forms on the surfaces of a coin as the result of gaseous compounds that are present in the ambient atmosphere where coins are placed (1) for purposes consistent with their intended use in commerce, or (2) for protective storage or display in a manner traditionally accepted by numismatists. Artificial toning forms on the surfaces of a coin by any process other than that which causes natural toning.

 

I figure that someone might eventually agree with me if I say it often enough.

 

That sounds pretty good.... but answer me a question or two...

 

If a person buys an old album, fills it with untoned coins with the intention of toning them, then places the album on a bookshelf that gets afternoon sunlight, are the coins that result a few years later NT or AT?

 

How about if he places it on top of his water heater and the coins tone in a month?

[MarkFeld]

Natural toning forms on the surfaces of a coin as the result of gaseous compounds that are present in the ambient atmosphere where coins are placed (1) for purposes consistent with their intended use in commerce, or (2) for protective storage or display in a manner traditionally accepted by numismatists. Artificial toning forms on the surfaces of a coin by any process other than that which causes natural toning.

 

I figure that someone might eventually agree with me if I say it often enough.

 

That sounds pretty good.... but answer me a question or two...

 

If a person buys an old album, fills it with untoned coins with the intention of toning them, then places the album on a bookshelf that gets afternoon sunlight, are the coins that result a few years later NT or AT?

 

How about if he places it on top of his water heater and the coins tone in a month?

Mike, better yet, why don't you answer your own questions as best you can, based on Lou's definition? And others will hopefully answer too. If we reach the same conclusions, that probably means the definition is workable.

[James_OldeTowne]

I hate to say it, but it's only artificial if it "looks" artificial. If you can't discern the toning from "natural", then it is as good as natural.

 

I agree with you james but if you know you are AT'ing a coin, it is AT. Whether anyone else realizes it or not is a different perspective altogether.

Yep, I agree. And Greg's circling cat graphic is intensely apropos!

 

I currently have literally hundreds of coins in old albums that I've been stockpiling, and my intent (and hope) is that they will acquire magnificent colors and become much more valuable. You can call that "artificial toning" if you wish, but a lot of people sure seem to like it enough to pay strong premiums.

 

As an aside, actually, very few coins have progressed much, but there are a handful of pieces that seem like they are going to really take off.

I wouldn't call album toning AT myself. there are alot of coins that tone with storage.

Here's another example, then. I've bought dipped or "too bright" Morgans that I've put on top of the water heater. These tone down pretty quickly, and very often to a 100% natural color - not wild or bizarrely colored (though that happens to), but just plain old grey. Are these AT? I can't tell some of them from natural coins.

[bsshog40]

You can call it what you want to, but I'll bet the TPG's will make the last decision on that.

[IGWT]

Natural toning forms on the surfaces of a coin as the result of gaseous compounds that are present in the ambient atmosphere where coins are placed (1) for purposes consistent with their intended use in commerce, or (2) for protective storage or display in a manner traditionally accepted by numismatists. Artificial toning forms on the surfaces of a coin by any process other than that which causes natural toning.

 

I figure that someone might eventually agree with me if I say it often enough.

 

That sounds pretty good.... but answer me a question or two...

 

If a person buys an old album, fills it with untoned coins with the intention of toning them, then places the album on a bookshelf that gets afternoon sunlight, are the coins that result a few years later NT or AT?

 

How about if he places it on top of his water heater and the coins tone in a month?

Mike, better yet, why don't you answer your own questions as best you can, based on Lou's definition? And others will hopefully answer too. If we reach the same conclusions, that probably means the definition is workable.

 

Hint: The intent of the collector is irrelevant under the proposed definition, and for good reason.

[GDJMSP]

You can call it what you want to, but I'll bet the TPG's will make the last decision on that.

 

Don't bet on that. The TPG's will slab whatever the market will accept. And the market - well, that's us.