Is there such a thing as an AU 68?

[MikeInFL]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1811-50c-Capped-Bust-Half-Dollar-sm-8-MS68-NGC_W0QQitemZ150194337635QQihZ005QQcategoryZ11969QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

 

Just wondering...Mike

[MunkyMan95]

WTF? MS68??

[MarkFeld]

WTF? MS68??

I wouldn't jump to a conclusion like that based on an image. It's doubtful that we know what the color, luster or surfaces look like from those images.

 

In answer to the original question posed in this thread - if you consider a Capped Bust Half which displays traces of cabinet/stacking friction to be AU, then yes, apparently so.

[MunkyMan95]

But Mark, even in a low quality image, a 200 year old MS68 coin should jump out at you. If the luster is booming in hand, I still don't see this coin as a MS68. Maybe MS65, but I just can't fathom a 68.

[MikeInFL]

In fairness, grading any coin from a photo is problematic.

 

I'm not disputing the price or disparaging the coin. Quite to the contrary, I find it amazing. The grade just struck me as odd given the (apparent) condition of the coin.

 

The title can certainly be read as prejudicial, but was done tongue-in-cheek...Mike

[James_OldeTowne]

That is not cabinet friction, and this is a truly uncirculated bust half.

 

Often, it is assumed that the different color on the highpoints is due to rub or "cabinet friction", and this is often true. However, a fully struck bust half is truly, truly rare, and different texture, luster and color on the highpoints can very well be a sign of unstruck metal, in other words, areas of the planchet that were never actually touched by the dies, and therefore will not have the same appearance as the rest of the coin.

 

This isn't the only series for which this is true, either. There's a reason why the "brown" on uncirculated copper almost always develops first on the highpoint areas.

 

The subject coin appears to me to be a wonderful treasure and properly graded - a "wondercoin", so to speak.

[Tradedollarnut]

That's not AU.

[MarkFeld]

But Mark, even in a low quality image, a 200 year old MS68 coin should jump out at you. If the luster is booming in hand, I still don't see this coin as a MS68. Maybe MS65, but I just can't fathom a 68.

Chad, take a look at some images of MS65 and MS66 Capped Bust Halves, preferably 1811 examples, and see how they compare.

[halfpint]

you're not debating a CAC sticker coin now are you?

[MarkFeld]

you're not debating a CAC sticker coin now are you?

I think it's a debate about what constitutes "AU" and trying to grade coins based on images.

[MikeInFL]

Everyone, please let's not get into another CAC flamefest....

 

FWIW, this is the only 68 NGC-graded 1811.

 

There are 3 67's, 8 66's and 13 65's graded by NGC.

 

PCGS has a single 67, 3 66's and 5 65's (as of Jan of last year).

 

This coin reminds me of a post/thought by Monsterman, which I happen to agree with, and seems to be evidenced by this coin (admittedly not having seen it in hand) -- high-end coins aren't graded per-se by the NGC/PCGS, they are ranked....high-point rub, stacking/cabinet friction, and/or evidence of a weak strike being set aside.

 

To wit, the message I get from this grade is that NGC thinks it is the finest example of this date they've ever seen....but a 68?

 

A lesson in market grading, the pitfalls of judging coins from photos, and the difference between cabinet friction and high-point rub, I suppose...Mike

[James_OldeTowne]

Gentlemen, what specific technical aspects of this coin lead you to believe it cannot grade MS-68? What is detracting from that grade, in your opinion?

[bsshog40]

I think it's a very nice looking coin. I don't know anything about cabinet friction or the like, but I do see what I would call either wear, or weak strike on the upper top of the left? wing (below M in America) and the beak and top of head of the eagle. I am still very unknowledgeable when it comes to determining the difference between wear and weak strike. JMO

[MarkFeld]

Gentlemen, what specific technical aspects of this coin lead you to believe it cannot grade MS-68? What is detracting from that grade, in your opinion?

I prefer NOT to form such an opinion based on images. However, in order to play devil's advocate and answer you, James.... The luster appears to be subdued, the color doesn't appear to be wonderful, it looks as if there are some stained/distracting areas and there look to be areas that aren't fully struck up and/or which display "friction". I'd want an MS68 example to jump out at me and smack me on the head and/or be essentially perfect. I don't know that this coin does that, though in-hand, it might.

[123cents]

To me there are 2 types of wear.

 

Physical...friction or rub.

Chemical..tarnish- toning, corrosion,etc.

 

It is just my opinion but I think that though this coin doesn't have any physical wear, it does have chemical wear in the form of moderate toning and should not be graded MS-68. I can see MS-66 but not the assigned grade.

[MAULEMALL]

I think the points that are confusing people are the high points that are a bit dull.. Lacking luster.. And to be honest this is a point I was making a month or so ago where the coin is not fully struck and the metal hasn't flowed to the deeper recesses. No metal flow means no luster. And those spots can take on the look of a rub or cabinet friction.

[MikeInFL]

Gentlemen, what specific technical aspects of this coin lead you to believe it cannot grade MS-68? What is detracting from that grade, in your opinion?

 

What appear to me to be:

 

High-point rub

Impared luster in fields

 

Admittedly, both of these could be the photos or my own ignorance.

 

But most of all...the coin doesn't strike me as something I would grade as 68. Said a bit differently, if this coin was Barber Half or heaven forbid a Kennedy, what do you think the TPGs would grade it?

[James_OldeTowne]

Gentlemen, what specific technical aspects of this coin lead you to believe it cannot grade MS-68? What is detracting from that grade, in your opinion?

 

What appear to me to be:

 

High-point rub

Impared luster in fields

 

Admittedly, both of these could be the photos or my own ignorance.

 

But most of all...the coin doesn't strike me as something I would grade as 68. Said a bit differently, if this coin was Barber Half or heaven forbid a Kennedy, what do you think the TPGs would grade it?

Honestly? I would guess MS-69.

 

No, I am not kidding.

[MikeInFL]

You may not be kidding, but I find your response

[MAULEMALL]

Gentlemen, what specific technical aspects of this coin lead you to believe it cannot grade MS-68? What is detracting from that grade, in your opinion?

 

What appear to me to be:

 

High-point rub

Impared luster in fields

 

Admittedly, both of these could be the photos or my own ignorance.

 

But most of all...the coin doesn't strike me as something I would grade as 68. Said a bit differently, if this coin was Barber Half or heaven forbid a Kennedy, what do you think the TPGs would grade it?

...Maybe it's because...

I think the points that are confusing people are the high points that are a bit dull.. Lacking luster.. And to be honest this is a point I was making a month or so ago where the coin is not fully struck and the metal hasn't flowed to the deeper recesses. No metal flow means no luster. And those spots can take on the look of a rub or cabinet friction.

_________________________

[MikeInFL]

p.s. does anyone have a copy of this coin's last public appearance, the 1984 Greater N.Y. State catalog? I wonder what it looked like then....

[MAULEMALL]

Gentlemen, what specific technical aspects of this coin lead you to believe it cannot grade MS-68? What is detracting from that grade, in your opinion?

 

What appear to me to be:

 

High-point rub

Impared luster in fields

 

Admittedly, both of these could be the photos or my own ignorance.

 

But most of all...the coin doesn't strike me as something I would grade as 68. Said a bit differently, if this coin was Barber Half or heaven forbid a Kennedy, what do you think the TPGs would grade it?

...Maybe it's because...

I think the points that are confusing people are the high points that are a bit dull.. Lacking luster.. And to be honest this is a point I was making a month or so ago where the coin is not fully struck and the metal hasn't flowed to the deeper recesses. No metal flow means no luster. And those spots can take on the look of a rub or cabinet friction.

_________________________

[MikeInFL]

Gentlemen, what specific technical aspects of this coin lead you to believe it cannot grade MS-68? What is detracting from that grade, in your opinion?

 

What appear to me to be:

 

High-point rub

Impared luster in fields

 

Admittedly, both of these could be the photos or my own ignorance.

 

But most of all...the coin doesn't strike me as something I would grade as 68. Said a bit differently, if this coin was Barber Half or heaven forbid a Kennedy, what do you think the TPGs would grade it?

...Maybe it's because...

I think the points that are confusing people are the high points that are a bit dull.. Lacking luster.. And to be honest this is a point I was making a month or so ago where the coin is not fully struck and the metal hasn't flowed to the deeper recesses. No metal flow means no luster. And those spots can take on the look of a rub or cabinet friction.

_________________________

 

Could be, but frankly I don't buy the "it isn't struck up" for this coin in particular because it is not confined to areas where I would expect weakness nor is it in areas that are obviously weakly struck.

 

For instance, look closely at Liberty's portrait. I could understand the discoloration being on the high points of the design, but what about for Liberty's bustline and her nose/chin -- and, specifically, why isn't this discoloration (if it is from a weak strike) also present on the broach on her shoulder, an area that is obviously weakly struck.

 

From the alternative explanations I've read thusfar, toning and/or cabinet friction seem to make the most sense...Mike

 

p.s. have you been editing your posts again?

[James_OldeTowne]

For instance, look closely at Liberty's portrait. I could understand the discoloration being on the high points of the design, but what about for Liberty's bustline and her nose/chin -- and, specifically, why isn't this discoloration (if it is from a weak strike) also present on the broach on her shoulder, an area that is obviously weakly struck....Mike

Those areas are indeed always suspect areas for poor metal flow for early-teen busties. In fact, this coin could almost be the poster child for showing what areas are the last to be struck up. Look where the tan color is a shade darker than the overall coin - those are the highpoint areas.

 

Bear in mind too that this is an 1811, and a different sub-type than later sub-types which have metal flow problems in other areas.

[MikeInFL]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

A few points/questions....

 

What about the broach? Shouldn't that show the same darkness if strike was causing this, or is the detail not on the die?

 

Also, wouldn't you expect some high points to not show this discoloration -- as I know for other coins there are areas that are high points of the design yet are typically well struck as metal flow, and not entirely height, is what causes strike issues.

 

Again, thanks for your insight...Mike

[MarkFeld]

Said a bit differently, if this coin was Barber Half or heaven forbid a Kennedy, what do you think the TPGs would grade it?

Like it or not, different types of coins are graded to different standards which take into account factors such as production methods and capabilities at the time they were produced.

[MikeInFL]

Said a bit differently, if this coin was Barber Half or heaven forbid a Kennedy, what do you think the TPGs would grade it?

Like it or not, different types of coins are graded to different standards which take into account factors such as production methods and capabilities at the time they were produced.

 

That's a great point, Mark, and I think you may have hit on an issue that may at the root of my misunderstanding. I'm not nearly as familiar with the characteristics of these earlier types, and some of my grading bias may be based on trying to extend my knowledge to earlier types, where it may not apply well. Thanks for pointing this out!

[MAULEMALL]

Said a bit differently, if this coin was Barber Half or heaven forbid a Kennedy, what do you think the TPGs would grade it?

Like it or not, different types of coins are graded to different standards which take into account factors such as production methods and capabilities at the time they were produced.

 

That's a great point, Mark, and I think you may have hit on an issue that may at the root of my misunderstanding. I'm not nearly as familiar with the characteristics of these earlier types, and some of my grading bias may be based on trying to extend my knowledge to earlier types, where it may not apply well. Thanks for pointing this out!

I'm sorry to have been so long responding but I went to the grocery store with my daughter.. First you need to know that I never edit my posts unless the spelling is just That embarrassing. Second as James pointed out , the parts of the coin that display the lack of luster are the exact high points to the design.

But also you have to understand the striking process of the period.. Coins were struck unevenly( ) all the time.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

uhhh - this is one of the best strikes I've ever seen on a bust half. And I see no high point wear.

[MikeInFL]

uhhh - this is one of the best strikes I've ever seen on a bust half. And I see no high point wear.

 

So what about the areas mentioned? If not areas of weak strike nor wear, are they toning in your opinion, or do you have an another alternative?

 

Thanks in advance for your insight...Mike