Another question for the numismatic gurus...

[Zeytwinder-migration]

I'm sorry if this topic has been previously discussed, I am new here and have a question that I hope you find not too silly.

 

I see many NGC & PCGS holders labeled "First Strikes", "First Day of Issue", "First Year of Issue" etc. Is there any numismatic value to these? I do see that this gets pumped up on eBay, but somehow I see this as some sort of gimmick as well. How does NGC know that they were the first strikes? Does NGC buy them from the mint as such? I thought that the year the coin is struck in is what really links the coin to mintage and scarcity - hence "First Year of Issue" I can probably understand, but the others...... not so much.

 

Like I said, sorry for perhaps an all too basic question - but any knowledge parted upon me would be appreciated.

[bsshog40]

Here's a link to some info on first stikes. Welcome to the forum.

first strike is out

[cpm9ball]

"Z", being sucked into this garbage is like believing everything you hear professed by the "coin gurus" on TV.

 

Chris

[bsshog40]

First strikes were a belief that these were coins struck at the beginning of the year with fresh dies and that people receiving these coins in the beginning of mintage year, had these coins. But it was soon clarified that actual first strike coins could not be verified from one to the other. This has all been changed to "First Day of Issue" now. The slabs that still have the First Strike designation still bring a small premium over others but it's more for the slabbed designation than for the actual coin.

[BillJones]

Numismatic reality:

 

"First Strike" means nothing except that it's an excuse to charge more for the same coin.

 

The more important concepts are "early die state" and "late die state." Quite often an early die state can mean a better impression of the design from the dies with not die breaks or failures. BUT there are die states for which some collectors will pay a premium. So there is no one answer when it comes to older coins.

[CHABSENTIA]

The U.S. Mint has stated that it does not keep a record of which Coin is struck first in relation to other coins, There are exceptions to this such as the George Washington First Day cover .The US. Mint has these in a special holder/cover with the date they were minted as well as a post marked stamp.

 

The coins you are referring to has been changed to First Day of Issue because of the fact that the mint has not kept a record of these.What happens here is that it is a production that happened withi the first 30 days of Mintage and not necessarily on the first day.This Coins have to be sent to the Grading Company unopened and with a date within 30 days of the start of Production.

 

If these guidelines are intact then they get slabbed as first day of issue and get graded . There is only one way to know this and that is if they are slabbed by NGC or PCGS withthis designation. If you look up a First Strike A.S.E in the Population here you will see that Numismedia assigns a No Price designation .

 

So one can be reasonably sure that this particular coin was produced in the first thirty days of production and this may normally command a small premium such as 10% so if a certain date and grade has a value of $45.00 then it might command a price of $50.00.

 

Of course, a coin is wort what anybody is willing to pay for it.I purchased several of the First Strike A.S.E Coins early on when there wasn't a large premium. I have one on the 1980s that I purchased for about 10% over price for that date without the designation. I recently saw the same date and grade on Teletrade and the bidding was above $400.00 I see where Sellers on EBAY are selling 1999 A.S.E in grade MS69 with the First Strike designation for $699,00 or more. This is ridiuculous. . There are other nice coin or coins one could buy for $700.00 that have a lot better value.

[construct]

About half the A.S.E.s for a given year are minted before the first day of release. Many, many die pairs are used during production. No record is kept as to when particular coins are minted. No records are kept of which coins are minted early in a die pair's use. Therefore there is no difference in the quality of coins released earlier and those released later.

 

The slab designations are a "marketing ploy"--nothing more. I would never buy them at a premium over the same coin without the designation.

[Zeytwinder-migration]

Gentlemen, once again, thanks for the valuable information. Not sure how many newbies you come across, but I'm as fresh as they get. So, to me, something like *First Strike* seemed very interesting, until I started wondering how this is determined and why this would be more valuable. So, you have helped me a lot.

 

One more question, and please don't punch me in the yams, because I know it's probably a dumb one - but what's A.S.E.? (Sorry).

[bsshog40]

American Silver Eagle ASE

[Zeytwinder-migration]

Ok - right...

 

Thanks again.

[cpm9ball]

Gentlemen, once again, thanks for the valuable information. Not sure how many newbies you come across, but I'm as fresh as they get. So, to me, something like *First Strike* seemed very interesting, until I started wondering how this is determined and why this would be more valuable. So, you have helped me a lot.

 

One more question, and please don't punch me in the yams, because I know it's probably a dumb one - but what's A.S.E.? (Sorry).

 

I'm probably going to catch some flak over this, but ASE is incorrect. It should be SAE. The bullion coin is actually an American Eagle. "Silver" is an adjective which is a modifier. Hence, the proper designation should be SAE or Silver American Eagle.

 

Chris

[CHABSENTIA]

I believe that this is waht I said in a mire detailed way. I did not speak of the possible number of coints minted in a certain time frame. I merely stated that the first day of issue now applies to coins that were minted in the first 30 days of production.

 

I could be 1 million or 10 million.I mentioned that the U.S.Mint has stated that it does not keep records of which coins were produced .There are exceptions such as the Washington, Adams and Jefferson First day covers that consist of both the P and D Mintmarks and are certified by the U.S. Mint as being Minted on the first day of Production.All three have a Mintage of 50,000.00 So it can be assumed that at least 50,000 can be Minted in one day.If the Mint produces 30 days a week than 30 times 50,000 than a minimum of 1.5 million can be minted.

 

In order to get the First day of Issue designation then coins have to be forwarded to the Grading service unopened and postmarked within that 30 day period.Assuming that all coins minted in that period were forwarded to the grading services then you would have a minimum of 1.5 million coins and it is correct that since the U.S.Mint does not keep records that there is no way of knowing which coins were Minted first etc.There is also no better coin because they were minted in the first 30 days since the U.S.Mint regularly changes dies in order to ensure quality.

 

There are still people out there that might pay a premium for a coin that was Minted in the first thirty days even though there is no difference in quality etc.

 

As I mention earlier there should not be more than a 10% premium at best but this is not always the case as mentioned in the previous post.In this respect there are people that voluntary become victims of this Marketing Ploy for whatever reason.

[Conder101]

You are confusing "first day of issue" and "First day of Production" with "early release" from NGC or First Strikes" from PCGS.

 

First Day of Production is strictly for the coins in the US Mint First day covers. Doesn't matter when they arrive at NGC if they are still in the cover they are FDOP.

 

First Day of Issue: These are coins that are released to the public on an announced specific day. These must be mailed to the TPG and have a post office postmark of that specific day. Traditionally these will be coins or rolls of coins either received from the bank on that day or from celebration events held on that day which are then rushed to the post office and mailed out that same day. You don't get coins from the mint for FDOI because you won't receive them and be able to re-mail them that same day. You might be able to have them shipped directly from the mint to the TPG, but there is no way to guarantee your order would be shipped on that first day so you may pay or grading for coins which aren't eligible for FDOI when they get there.

 

Early Release and First Strike are both the same thing. These are coins (usually bullion only) that arrive at or are postmarked no later than 30 days after the coins are first released. (In the case of the silver eagles in the green monster boxes the packing sheet inside the unopened box must be dated before the 30 day deadline.)

 

This does NOT mean these coins are from the first 30 days of production. Usually the mint begins production of a coin weeks or even months before it is first released. In the case of the silver eagles there is five months of production sitting there on Jan 1st when they become available. Add in the next 30 days production and you have six full months or production that is eligible for Early Release or First Strikes labeling. It just has to get to the grading service before the deadline. The President dollars have also been receiving these designations I believe, but once again they are struck months before they are released. Technically almost the entire Madison Dollar production was probably eligible for Early Release/First Strikes.

[CHABSENTIA]

You are correct and I can see where for some I might have confused the issue but like many I write in response to othwr messages and how I see things.

 

The George Washington Cover states " The coins showcased............were struck on the first day of mInting". I don't remember when I received it or the Adams etc but if they were struck on the "First day" of Minting whether or not they were struck 6 months earlier or there were more then the 50,000 issued under that designation then according to the U.S. Mint they were coins issued that were minted on the first day hence my use of the word "First Strike" since they were struck first.

 

The cover further states that the Post marked stamp of February 15,2007 marks the day that the coins were first released to the Federal Reserve Bank and the public certifying this limited edition..Again I do not remember when I received it but there is a three month lag between the First day of Mintage and the release to the Federal Reserve.

 

Again you are correct and I may have confused the terms First Strike and FDOP as to the technical defintion bu this was the way I saw it.