When one collector's "you suck" award is another's "you were robbed by a dealer"

[MarkFeld]

There are a number of different threads dating back to April of 2006 about a fantastic group of coins that a collector was incredibly fortunate to have acquired from a dealer - see the most recent thread

here .

 

I'm happy for the collector who has been receiving deserved raves over his coins and the coveted "you suck" compliment from numerous posters. But if I recall correctly, he bought the amazing and valuable (uncertified) coins at a fraction of what they were/are "worth" from a local dealer who had them on consignment from a client. I don't claim to know the specific details, but I know enough to believe that the dealer likely virtually gave the coins away. And that he did a huge disservice to his client, while probably charging a commission for that (dis)service.

 

Everyone seems focused on the good fortune of the buyer, but I haven't seen a peep about the bad fortune of the seller or the terrible representation by the dealer. There are some valuable lessons to be learned by looking at their side of things, as well.

[bsshog40]

As I do agree with your concern and sympathy that you express Mark, I do have to say that the buyer, (you, me, or someone else) is always looking for a good deal. I think that if there was any wrong doing or mis-interpretation of prices for these coins, then that would have to be resolved by dealer and client. The price paid may have covered all that the client was asking for and the dealers percentage. It would be hard to find a buyer that would tell a dealer that he's just not charging enough for those coins, and could he raise the price. Not being sarcastic at all Mark, just realistic.

[Dcoin]

What possible advantage would the dealer gain from pricing them so low in the retail end of the transaction?

 

If anything, he would have bought the coins outright for a lowball figure and then made his money that way. Could it be that the seller was just as ignorant of their true worth as the owner?

 

[okbustchaser]

This leads into something I have ranted about before. Why is it that people want to castrate a dealer for underpaying a WILLING seller but if a dealer gets less than he could have in exactly the same way by someone then that someone is a hero? Where is the difference?

 

IMO, there is NO difference. Either it is okay to rip off the less knowledgable or it isn't. Personally, I don't care either way. In BOTH situations the seller receives a minimum of what the coins are worth TO HIM.

 

As to the original post, if the consignor got what he wanted for the coins and the dealer got his profit for making the sale, then what's the problem?

 

[19Lyds]

I still do not see where or what the OP from ATS actually paid for this set and am certainly curious as to how this earns a "You Suck"?

 

Perhaps someone recalls the post?

[realone]

My 2 sense (or lack of) :

The dealer absolutely hurt the seller, he did not get the most for his client as he is supposed to try to achieve and got paid whether he accomplished that or not. The buyer did absolutley nothing wrong in paying what the dealer accepted and took the risk to boot. We all know that because these coins were raw yet drop dead beautifull it is possible (yet unlikely due to the quality of the coins) that the coins could have graded differently at the major tpg because as you all know on any given day the human grader can grade things quite inconsistantly. However in this case since the coins seem to be so outstanding I realize probably only to me would there be a risk in purchasing them because I am not confident in my grading skills but to everyone else they probably would have had no problem.

So to sum it up, another dealer ripped off a client this time it was the seller and not the buyer as I typically rant in my past rantings.

In real estate brokers have a fiducuary responsiblity to their clients, and it is governed by law, in the coin business their is mcuh more vagueness and little enforcement to protect the clients and I raarely see dealers act in that capacity.

[MarkFeld]

As I do agree with your concern and sympathy that you express Mark, I do have to say that the buyer, (you, me, or someone else) is always looking for a good deal. I think that if there was any wrong doing or mis-interpretation of prices for these coins, then that would have to be resolved by dealer and client. The price paid may have covered all that the client was asking for and the dealers percentage. It would be hard to find a buyer that would tell a dealer that he's just not charging enough for those coins, and could he raise the price. Not being sarcastic at all Mark, just realistic.

I agree and have no issue with the buyer's conduct.

[Prethen]

I also wonder why there's so much stigma attached to this transaction. Just how much did the buyer "underpay" anyway?

[MarkFeld]

What possible advantage would the dealer gain from pricing them so low in the retail end of the transaction?

 

If anything, he would have bought the coins outright for a lowball figure and then made his money that way. Could it be that the seller was just as ignorant of their true worth as the owner?

It's quite possible that the dealer had no idea as to their value and didn't want to buy them outright, but was happy to make his commission by selling them quickly and easily.

 

This leads into something I have ranted about before. Why is it that people want to castrate a dealer for underpaying a WILLING seller but if a dealer gets less than he could have in exactly the same way by someone then that someone is a hero? Where is the difference?

 

IMO, there is NO difference. Either it is okay to rip off the less knowledgable or it isn't. Personally, I don't care either way. In BOTH situations the seller receives a minimum of what the coins are worth TO HIM.

 

As to the original post, if the consignor got what he wanted for the coins and the dealer got his profit for making the sale, then what's the problem?

To some, there is no problem. To me, when a dealer (or someone in his position) represents another party who, in theory, at least, is less informed, he has a fiduciary duty toward that person.

 

I still do not see where or what the OP from ATS actually paid for this set and am certainly curious as to how this earns a "You Suck"?

 

Perhaps someone recalls the post?

I don't know the specifics, but have in my mind that the seller fared extremely poorly.

 

 

[bsshog40]

I also wonder why there's so much stigma attached to this transaction. Just how much did the buyer "underpay" anyway?

 

This would be curious to know also. Also, have many of the values of these coins changed since the 2 yrs when they were purchased?

[Connecticoin]

Mark, do you know for sure the coins were on consignment? I don't recall that being the case from the various threads in 2006.

[WinstonWare]

Frankly, I’m fine with it. The seller should have some knowledge of what their coins are worth. It wouldn’t take more than an hour of research to figure out that they should have had their coins certified and then sold them. Oh well…

[MarkFeld]

Mark, do you know for sure the coins were on consignment? I don't recall that being the case from the various threads in 2006.

I am virtually certain, but am clearly not always right. However, if I am mistaken and the dealer had bought the coins, rather than taken them on consignment, that might make his actions even worse.

[okbustchaser]

To some, there is no problem. To me, when a dealer (or someone in his position) represents another party who, in theory, at least, is less informed, he has a fiduciary duty toward that person.

 

Collections are sold daily for less than their "market" value. Never having consigned to a dealer maybe I am misinformed. Would not a "sell" price be negotiated betwen seller and dealer prior to the consignment? If so, then logically the established price would have satisfied the seller. I see no fiduciary problem here, merely a liquidated collection.

 

Edit to add: On the other hand, if the consignment agreement consists of "Here is my collection. Sell them for the best price you can get." then yes, I do feel that the dealer failed his client.

[IrishMike]

In one of his threads on the dime he stated he bought the coins from the same pawnshop that marty frequents. If that is the case and not saying it is then I don't see a problem unless they were stolen.

[TomB]

I rarely give out the YS award and this might have been the only time I have written it on the PCGS boards. My recollection of this group of coins was that it was purchased as an intact type set from a brick-and-morter dealer. If this is true, and if the dealer had the coins on consignment, then I see no reason to back away from the YS award in this instance. In my opinion, virtually anytime someone gets an incredible deal directly from a dealer it warrants congratulations or, in this case, the YS award. The reason for this is because the dealer should know the approximate value of the coins in his/her inventory and this knowledge should extend into any consigned pieces. Additionally, I do not know that I would have told the dealer that the coins were priced too low, either, because that would be a no-win situation for the potential buyer. If the clueless dealer was educated as to the possible worth of the set then the dealer may do one of several things that would include to keep the set for him/her self, break up the set and sell the coins individually for much more or sell the set intact at a level that might be far higher than the original price. None of these actions would necessarily earn more money for the client since the dealer and client must already have discussed the value of the coins. Perhaps more importantly, the person attempting to buy the coins would now either have no shot at the coins or would have to pay far more for the set.

 

I do not believe in taking advantage of a collector or heir when it comes to a direct sale, but I see nothing wrong with using knowledge to gain an advantage vs. a dealer and this includes when the dealer represents a client.

[IGWT]

-- I do not believe in taking advantage of a collector or heir when it comes to a direct sale, but I see nothing wrong with using knowledge to gain an advantage vs. a dealer and this includes when the dealer represents a client." --

 

I'm not sure that there's much of a difference between a "direct sale" and an indirect sale through an agent. The advantage is taken at the expense of the (presumably) unknowledgeable seller in each case.

[MarkFeld]

I rarely give out the YS award and this might have been the only time I have written it on the PCGS boards. My recollection of this group of coins was that it was purchased as an intact type set from a brick-and-morter dealer. If this is true, and if the dealer had the coins on consignment, then I see no reason to back away from the YS award in this instance. In my opinion, virtually anytime someone gets an incredible deal directly from a dealer it warrants congratulations or, in this case, the YS award. The reason for this is because the dealer should know the approximate value of the coins in his/her inventory and this knowledge should extend into any consigned pieces. Additionally, I do not know that I would have told the dealer that the coins were priced too low, either, because that would be a no-win situation for the potential buyer. If the clueless dealer was educated as to the possible worth of the set then the dealer may do one of several things that would include to keep the set for him/her self, break up the set and sell the coins individually for much more or sell the set intact at a level that might be far higher than the original price. None of these actions would necessarily earn more money for the client since the dealer and client must already have discussed the value of the coins. Perhaps more importantly, the person attempting to buy the coins would now either have no shot at the coins or would have to pay far more for the set.

 

I do not believe in taking advantage of a collector or heir when it comes to a direct sale, but I see nothing wrong with using knowledge to gain an advantage vs. a dealer and this includes when the dealer represents a client.

Tom, I'm glad you posted your reply here, too. As I just wrote in an email to you (in which I omitted a word and have added it here) however:

 

"Hi Tom,

 

I agree with what you wrote, BUT, what about the responsibility of the dealer to whom the coins were consigned to get at least a fair price for the consignor? Just because the consignor doesn't know more/better doesn't excuse the dealer, does it?

 

Best,

Mark"

 

Also, let me stress again - I have no problem at all with the fortunate buyer's conduct.

 

[IGWT]

Oh . . . I forgot to mention that fc sends his regards.

[TomB]

The dealer's actions illustrate that he/she has little knowledge within the niche and might be so bad as to warrant an accusation of negligence. I do not know whether this accusation would be actionable, but the consignor likely relied to some extent upon the dealer to establish a price, or if the price was pre-determined by the client then the dealer should have educated the consignor regarding the price, yet received none of the professional protection that they paid for via commission.

[TomB]

IGWT, I agree with much of what you have stated there, but in this case there is virtually no way to guarantee that the consignor would benefit at all from the additional information. The additional information may very well have gone to enrich the seller at the expense of the buyer without any information getting back to the consignor. In this instance I see nothing wrong with acting on the good deal.

[MBA101]

This is a YS award to a tee IMHO. The buyer was "right place, right time" and the dealer and former owner did not take the time to figure out what they had and how to get the most money for their collection, and that is their problem. Do you even think that after all this time that they even think that they got screwed? Probably not.

[CHABSENTIA]

I have a situation right now. I bought a Morgan on E bay and it was a BIN.Using the Numismedai value all of the Dealers coins were pretty close to that value. I was specifically looking for one coin to fill a gap.

 

This particular date had " scarce..........". and the BIN was $185.00. The Numismedia value is $300.00The dealer has been in Business for 35 years.

 

The next day when I went to pay for the coin which is in a certified NGC slab I received the message to hold off on payment as the coin was either stolen or lost and that they did not do business this way and would look through their Inventory on Monday.

 

I am having several problems here.

 

1.All of the other coins in his Inventory were priced close to Numismedia value except for this one.

2. The title "scarce" was listed in the heading.

3.The guy has been in Buisness for 35 years.

 

The one particular one that seems to be underpriced is the one that just might be lost or stolen?

 

What happens if this dealer says the coin is lost or stolen and I see the same exact coin on E Bay down the line ? It will be easy to identify because of the certification number.It would seem to me that the Dealer would also be aware of this but what if another dealer on E Bay is selling the exact same coin?

[MikeInFL]

Everyone seems focused on the good fortune of the buyer, but I haven't seen a peep about the bad fortune of the seller or the terrible representation by the dealer. There are some valuable lessons to be learned by looking at their side of things, as well.

 

Taking advantage of someone, whether that person is informed (dealer) or uniformed (consignor), is always wrong, and I've always found it rather odd when collectors relish in this with a "you suck".

 

In this case, the dealer who took the consignment is clearly the most at fault. He should have never let those coins go for what he did. The original owner was ignorant, and certainly not blameless, and the buyer took advantage of the situation.

 

All IMHO...Mike

[MarkFeld]

Oh . . . I forgot to mention that fc sends his regards.

I saw that - thanks. It doesn't make me feel good to have people say negative things about me. But, if it's going to be done, I much prefer that it be from posters like FC and Pharmer, rather than others who appear to be more informative, fair minded and and intellectually honest in their posts.

[MikeInFL]

Mark, I'd wear that as a badge of honor. ...Mike

[jesbroken]

I apologize, but I must have missed something. Is there information as to what price the buyer got the coins for? Is there information regarding what took place between the seller and the dealer as far as rules set down by the seller-the seller could have said I need $X immediately for these coins, to which the dealer did not have the wherewithal to buy them himself to which he responded with a call to buyer. Fifty other scenarios could as easily of occurred. The YS awards, seem to me to be light hearted jealousy responses to me. One even occurred with a accompanying it. Again if I missed some information I apologize. No doubt we all feel the buyer to be extremely lucky. How many here could afford to pay out cash for all those coins at even 60% of their value. Maybe all of them and immediate cash was a requirement. Who knows?

 

[relicsncoins]

I guess it really depends on what the buyer paid for them. If he paid 65 money for a bunch of 67 coins, then he got a good deal, but I wouldn't nescessarily say the dealer under-represented his client. Afterall the coins were raw, and I don't think we know the specifics as to the conversation between the dealer and his client.

 

What if the dealer told his client that he should really submitt the coins for grading to maximize his proffits, and what if the client said I don't want to hassle with it and would like to liquidate them as soon as possible. To which the dealer responds that he will likely only get 64 or 65 money for the coins, because there just arn't many collectors that will pay 66 and 67 money for coins with out a piece of plastic's blessings.

 

JJ

 

edited to add: I see we think alike Jim.

 

 

[Conder101]

What happens if this dealer says the coin is lost or stolen and I see the same exact coin on E Bay down the line ? It will be easy to identify because of the certification number.It would seem to me that the Dealer would also be aware of this but what if another dealer on E Bay is selling the exact same coin?

Well if another dealer is selling it you contact the first dealer and report to him that you found out who has the coins that he told you were stolen! Listen to him squirm. If he says he found them later ask him why didn't he go ahead and honor the deal then? If he has them listed, contact him and say "Hey great, I see you found that coin you misplaced. Now we can go ahead and finish our deal." Make sure you keep copies of the ebay listing and emails just in case he can't remember the details of the deal.

 

Of course if your going to do this you can't tell to "forget about it" when he just can't find them. It has to be, "well when they do turn up we'll finish the deal." Otherwise he will tell you that when you said to forget about it that cancelled the deal.

[John Martinez]

How about some perspective.

 

I wanted to sell some camera and accessories. I priced it what I felt it was worth. A neighbor said he would be taking advantage of me and gave me more than my asking price.

 

Recently, I wanted to sell a highly customized vehicle. I knew what it was worth. I also wanted to sell it with the least hassle. I received full price immediately. While waiting for the payment to be transferred, I received several higher offers from other people, which, I declined as I am a person of my word. When one asked why I was selling it for the price I listed, I responded, “I priced it at what I considered a fair price”.

 

What if the If the person who purchased my Jeep advertises what a great deal he got, does he deserve the “YS” award? No. What if he knew something and did not offer me a higher price, does he deserve the "YS" award? No. I have a responsibility in this as well.

 

Unless we have ALL the facts regarding ALL conversations on ALL sides of this issue, how can we stand in judgment of anyone?