I'll play devil's advocate and take the other side of this story/complaint..

[MarkFeld]

First, let me say that I know both parties and like each of them. I will quote Saintguru's complaint, verbatim and then give another side, based upon a combination of my guess regarding what might have happened, how I know people act and relay events, having been an auctioneer and worked for a major auction house, etc.

 

Never trust B&M when it comes to having them call you to bid on an auction.

They were suposed to call me TWICE last night to bid on a coin. An expensive coin....about 40K.

 

I gave these instructions to Steve Deeds on Wednesday. So I'm watching...and waiting...and watching...and NOTHING! the phone is silent

 

So then in a final attempt to get the coin I bid live on the internet...someone tops my 35K bid with what appeared to be a split-bid at 35.5 and the next bid in line is not the normal $1000 higher...it's saying BID $2500 higher, or $38K ! I later find out that the increments are "different" online

 

I passed and I was pissed.

 

This AM I called Steve Deeds...and wanted to know why I wasn't called. He didn't know, but he will "investigate". WTH is there to investigate? This is their business...this is what you rely on. A no-call is a no-call...to me the reason is irrelevant...it's their internal problem. And as a result, and had I been on the phone...I could have bid $1000 higher and bought the coin. Then he pulled the "lower your voice" defense. I just love that when you have someone on the run for screwing up a deal and they start to tell you to be quiet. Like I'm guilty now.

 

Oh..the bid that won, that I was not able to top appropriately...it was B&M....for the book. He said I'll sell it to you for $500 more.

 

HUH? An additional $500, PLUS the 15%....and not stopping to think that maybe, just maybe, a customer could be lost over this? I told him that he could keep his coin and I got a "Have a nice day...CLICK!". :3Devil

 

A customer was lost. I an certain that this would never happen with Heritage. They call. Their bidding increments are uniforn no matter what method. They don't get hot and defensive when they mess up. and they don't play "bad cop" when they make a mistake.

 

This is the first time I have ever made a post criticizing a coin operation. But the way this occured and the way the response was handled pissed me off...a lot.

 

The good news is that the coin was not a MUST HAVE coin. I wanted it, and was willing to pay a reasonable price, but it was shy of "greatness". ;

 

 

1) It sounds as if Bowers messed up in not contacting/calling Saintguru for the bidding.

 

2) However, I don't think that necessarily leads to the conclusion that you should "never" trust them in having them call you to execute bids.

 

3) I think that Mr. Deeds saying he would "investigate" was, on a practical basis, about all he could do at that point (other than apologize), unless Saintguru preferred to hear a lie about how it happened, when that information wasn't yet available.

 

4) Mr. Deed's "lower your voice" defense might have been perfectly reasonable - I doubt that the "voice" was a low volume one.

 

5) Offering to sell the coin for $500 over the winning bid was a very fair proposal. Bowers couldn't sell it to someone other than the winning bidder for the same as or less than the coin hammered at. And if Saintguru had placed a bid, it sounds as if it would have been for at least $1000 (not just $500) more, anyway.

 

6) The complaint about the change in bidding increments might or might not have been legitimate. Most auction houses have dollar levels at which the increments change.

 

7) Perhaps Saintguru would have hung up on himself had he been on the other end of the line, saying whatever he was, in whatever tone and volume he was.

 

8) Saintguru apparently has no complaints with the way Heritage handles errors, but (and I like Heritage too) I know of some other people who do.

 

I expect to receive a call from Saintguru before too long. Who knows, I might have to ask him to lower his voice and make the phone go "click" if he misbehaves.

[BillJones]

Offering to sell the coin for $500 over the winning bid was a very fair proposal.

 

Sorry, but I have to take issue with this statment.

 

IF the bid level is $35,000 AND that was Saintguru's bid, selling him out for $500 STINKS.

 

The way I've seen these auctions done is that the floor accepts a spit bid (under the usual increment) over another floor bidder from a floor bidder ONCE. If the floor bidder outbids the split bid bidder, the split bid bidder is OUT for that lot.

 

An auction firm should avoid accepting a split bid against a legitimate bid on the book. If it's a very good customer, they are down right CRAZY to do that.

 

If I were a big bidder like Saintguru, I'd be pissed too.

 

I've had my bids ignored by mistake on occasion. AND I've been the high bidder, but not gotten the item because the the auctioneer's mistake. That sucks, I don't don't blame someone their disappointment over that.

 

Of course if I were willing to pay $40,000 for the lot, I would have bid that in the first place. The tough part about that is if your bids are not being broken back for the competition. In that case I'd look for a new auction house.

[IGWT]

I'll bet Jay gave them the wrong phone number to call.

[ibyandsellsmith]

I have a question. How is it that B & M could bid on their own auctions in the first place?

 

With that being said I agree that the Guru should have come out on top, since it was a split bid. I would have been hot, their already getting 15% over the bid so why ask for another $500. Sound like a scam to me!

[James_OldeTowne]

A customer was lost. I an certain that this would never happen with Heritage.

I don't know who this "SaintGuru" is, but this statement he makes is simply not true.

[MarkFeld]

Offering to sell the coin for $500 over the winning bid was a very fair proposal.

 

Sorry, but I have to take issue with this statment.

 

IF the bid level is $35,000 AND that was Saintguru's bid, selling him out for $500 STINKS.

 

The way I've seen these auctions done is that the floor accepts a spit bid (under the usual increment) over another floor bidder from a floor bidder ONCE. If the floor bidder outbids the split bid bidder, the split bid bidder is OUT for that lot.

 

An auction firm should avoid accepting a split bid against a legitimate bid on the book. If it's a very good customer, they are down right CRAZY to do that.

 

If I were a big bidder like Saintguru, I'd be pissed too.

 

I've had my bids ignored by mistake on occasion. AND I've been the high bidder, but not gotten the item because the the auctioneer's mistake. That sucks, I don't don't blame someone their disappointment over that.

 

Of course if I were willing to pay $40,000 for the lot, I would have bid that in the first place. The tough part about that is if your bids are not being broken back for the competition. In that case I'd look for a new auction house.

Bill, it sounds as if the offer was to sell the coin to Saintguru for $500 more than the winning bidder (not Saintguru) bid. Saintguru apparently bid $35,000, someone else bid $35,500 and Mr. Deeds offered to sell it for $500 more than that - $36,000. That sounds extremely fair.

 

Edited to add - auction houses frequently allow cut bids for what end up being low amounts over the current high bid. It is up to the discretion of the auctioneer, and what was relayed in this situation in that regard is not particularly uncomon.

[MarkFeld]

I have a question. How is it that B & M could bid on their own auctions in the first place?

 

With that being said I agree that the Guru should have come out on top, since it was a split bid. I would have been hot, their already getting 15% over the bid so why ask for another $500. Sound like a scam to me!

Bowers bid on behalf of a bidder who placed a bid with them. All auction houses I know of do the same.

 

They probably asked for an additional $500 precisely because that was the increment by which Saintguru was outbid by. If they sold it to him at no increment over the winning bid and reflected a final bid of $35,500, the other bidder would justifiably think and expect that he had won the lot. No scam here. The 15% buyer's premium has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

[MarkFeld]

I'll bet Jay gave them the wrong phone number to call.

That or he counter offered his phone carrier when he received his recent bill, they declined his counter and promptly turned off his service. Hi Jay.

[ibyandsellsmith]

I have a question. How is it that B & M could bid on their own auctions in the first place?

 

With that being said I agree that the Guru should have come out on top, since it was a split bid. I would have been hot, their already getting 15% over the bid so why ask for another $500. Sound like a scam to me!

Bowers bid on behalf of a bidder who placed a bid with them. All auction houses I know of do the same.

 

They probably asked for an additional $500 precisely because that was the increment by which Saintguru was outbid by. If they sold it to him at no increment over the winning bid and reflected a final bid of $35,500, the other bidder would justifiably think and expect that he had won the lot. No scam here. The 15% buyer's premium has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

Sorry I was under the impression that B&M bid on the coins for themselves.

With this new info I honestly couldn't see how they could offer the coin to somebody else for any amount of money. First bidder in this situation would be the winner.

[MarkFeld]

OK FELD......first of all, had you turned on your phone this morning you would have heard about this from me...

 

But to address a few issues that are incorrect..

 

1) It sounds as if Bowers messed up in not contacting/calling Saintguru for the bidding. CORRECT

 

2) However, I don't think that necessarily leads to the conclusion that you should "never" trust them in having them call you to execute bids. CORRECT...I edited that before I saw your post. I changed it to "You can't rely..."

 

3) I think that Mr. Deeds saying he would "investigate" was, on a practical basis, about all he could do at that point (other than apologize), unless Saintguru preferred to hear a lie about how it happened, when that information wasn't yet available. He could have started by apologizing...but he did NOT. He never showed any concern other than to get defensive and try to defend a bad situation. He was frustrated and he said some things that were not well thought out.

 

4) Mr. Deed's "lower your voice" defense might have been perfectly reasonable - I doubt that the "voice" was a low volume one.

Actually it was. I was mad, but not loud. It wasn't a huge loss. But when he started talking over me and addressing the "WHY the call wasn't made" mystery, I felt that he wasn't doing a customer any service.

 

5) Offering to sell the coin for $500 over the winning bid was a very fair proposal. Bowers couldn't sell it to someone other than the winning bidder for the same as or less than the coin hammered at. And if Saintguru had placed a bid, it sounds as if it would have been for at least $1000 (not just $500) more, anyway. I can't judge this. I don't know how their book works.

 

6) The complaint about the change in bidding increments might or might not have been legitimate. Most auction houses have dollar levels at which the increments change. CORRECT....but NOT different increments whether you bid online or in person. Their "breakpoint is $50K, so there!

 

7) Perhaps Saintguru would have hung up on himself had he been on the other end of the line, saying whatever he was, in whatever tone and volume he was. No...SG would have been slightly more diplomatic and said a lot less with a tone indicating that I might be in a jam. Believe me, as a stockbroker I have made those calls.

 

8) Saintguru apparently has no complaints with the way Heritage handles errors, but (and I like Heritage too) I know of some other people who do. CORRECT...I haven't. Subjective argument.

 

I expect to receive a call from Saintguru before too long. Who knows, I might have to ask him to lower his voice and make the phone go "click" if he misbehaves. Too bad you still aren't answering your phone. Who knows...had you been attentive this thread could have been avoided. It's all Feld's fault.

 

Those are all truthful replies. There are one or two things that I can't be the judge of because I don't know all their facts. I do know the empirical issues, which I addressed.

 

 

1) "OK FELD"

Jay, do you always resort to calling people by their last name when they disagree with you?

 

2) "had you turned on your phone this morning you would have heard about this from me..."

Gee, I'm SO sorry I had my phone turned off.

 

3) I'm glad to see that you edited your thread title, admitted you exaggerated wildly and that you shouldn't have said "never..."

 

4) I agree that Mr. Deeds should have apologized, before anything else, in fact. Often, however, when people are put on the defensive (not that you would do that to anyone) they don't put their best foot forward.

 

5) Since you admittedly don't know how the book works and can't judge it, you shouldn't have complained about the extremely fair offer he made which would have allowed you to top the winning bid by $500 and end up with the prize.

 

6) Other auction houses also have different increments depending on whether a bidder is bidding on line or on the floor - you usually can't cut the increment on line like you can on the floor. So your complaint there was also unjustified.

 

7) I wish you'd see if you can get David Hall to let me back on the forum so that I could debate you directly, over there On second thought, it would be better for you if that didn't happen.

 

Jay, I am admittedly purposely giving you a hard time and kidding around to some extent. But, I do think you went way overboard, didn't consider the other side and unfairly complained vociferously about a number of things which didn't warrant it.

 

Long story short - it sounds as if they messed up, but tried to fix it in a very fair manner, though apparently without using the best bedside manner.

[ibyandsellsmith]

I'm not sure why they kicked him off the boards, and frankly I don't care, I think he should be let back on, for the mere fact he's probably got some nice coins to show.

 

 

[gmarguli]

Sounds like B&M screwed up, but made a reasonable attempt to correct the situation and Saintguru declined the resolution. End of story.

[Tradedollarnut]

End of story.

 

You don't know SaintGuru very well, do you?

 

[CoinZip]

This could get ugly......real ugly

[MarkFeld]

This could get ugly......real ugly

I disagree. I can only see it getting better from here.

[DC Dawg]

Edited to add - auction houses frequently allow cut bids for what end up being low amounts over the current high bid. It is up to the discretion of the auctioneer, and what was relayed in this situation in that regard is not particularly uncomon.

Mark... can you explain this statement. What is a cut bid and what does this mean? And why would you classify it as "not particularly uncommon?" THANKS!

 

Scott

[MarkFeld]

Edited to add - auction houses frequently allow cut bids for what end up being low amounts over the current high bid. It is up to the discretion of the auctioneer, and what was relayed in this situation in that regard is not particularly uncomon.

Mark... can you explain this statement. What is a cut bid and what does this mean? And why would you classify it as "not particularly uncommon?" THANKS!

 

Scott

Scott, let's say that a particular coin has opened for bidding at $20,000 and the auctioneer is calling for bidding increments of $1000....

 

The coin has been bid up to $25,000 and the auctioneer calls for $26,000....

 

Rather than bidding the full $26,000, a bidder on the floor calls out (or indicates such by motioning with a hand movement) a (cut) bid of $25,500, for example...

 

At that point it is the auctioneer's discretion whether to accept that cut bid or not - usually the auctioneer accepts such a bid..

 

Once a particular bidder cuts the bid on a given lot, it is generally understood that he has done so because that was his maxuimum bid and he won't be allowed to bid again on that lot....

 

At that point, to be fair, the auctioneer typically will allow a differnet bidder to place a bid for the same smaller (cut) increment.

 

The auctioneer doesn't want to accept too many cut bids because that can slow down the pace of the auction significantly, as well as frustrate bidders.

[Mirrored Morgan]

Sounds like B&M screwed up, but made a reasonable attempt to correct the situation and Saintguru declined the resolution. End of story.

 

It sounds like B@M was trying to make it right and Saintgoofball went off the deep end. What is an extra $500.00 when you are buying $40,000.00 coins?

 

Next time, he should buy a plane ticket or have someone represent him at the auction when spending money like that on a coin.

 

As for Heritage, they are excellent at calling you about 5 minutes before your coin comes up in auction. They are the best auction house out there for coins IMO.

[MarkFeld]

Next time, he should buy a plane ticket or have someone represent him at the auction when spending money like that on a coin.

While I disagree with some of the complaints that Jay had, he apparently had good reason to feel that someone (in this case Bowers) would represent him on the coin. I don't think he should be faulted just because they apparently dropped the ball.

 

For the record, I have even seen dealer and collector agents actually in the auction room, drop the ball, too - they can get distracted and miss a bid, etc.

[goose3]

Mark

 

how many people looking to spend 40K have you hung up on lately?

[Conder101]

1. It sounds like B&M dropped the ball by not calling SG. Lesson to be learned, if you want to bid on a coin, call them don't depend on them to call you.

 

2. I can't address the differences in the bid increments because I have no data.

 

3. It sounds like B&M bought the coin for their own account with a cut bid. If you folks will read the terms of sale you will find that most if not all of the auction houses reserve this option for themselves. And when they do that THEY do not have to pay the buyers fee, which gives them a 15% advantage over the other bidders.

 

I believe they bought it on their own account because if it just sold to the book for some other client and they then offered to sell it out from under that client to SG, they would just be trading one can of worms for another one

 

4. I think an offer to sell it to him at $500 over the winning bid would be quite fair. But since he is buying it from B&M and not an auction at that point, no 15% buyers fee. $36,000 total for the coin. That would be 15% less than he would have been able to purchase it for if he had been the successful bidder.

 

5. Can't comment on the "Lower your voice comment since I don't know how loud he was.

[gmarguli]

I'm not sure why they kicked him off the boards, and frankly I don't care, I think he should be let back on, for the mere fact he's probably got some nice coins to show.

 

That's Mark Feld talking about getting himself back on the forums. Saintguru was never banned from the forums.

 

Or if you were actually asking why Mark got banned, he was trying to emulate his hero, me.

[MAULEMALL]

I'm not sure why they kicked him off the boards, and frankly I don't care, I think he should be let back on, for the mere fact he's probably got some nice coins to show.

 

That's Mark Feld talking about getting himself back on the forums. Saintguru was never banned from the forums.

 

Or if you were actually asking why Mark got banned, he was trying to emulate his hero, me.

I was just telling someone the other day ,How much of a resembelence there was.

[michael]

the key------------ Offering to sell the coin for $500 over the winning bid was a very fair proposal. Bowers couldn't sell it to someone other than the winning bidder for the same as or less than the coin hammered at. And if Saintguru had placed a bid, it sounds as if it would have been for at least $1000 (not just $500) more, anyway.

 

 

YES---------Of course if I were willing to pay $40,000 for the lot, I would have bid that in the first place.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

1. It sounds like B&M dropped the ball by not calling SG. Lesson to be learned, if you want to bid on a coin, call them don't depend on them to call you.

 

2. I can't address the differences in the bid increments because I have no data.

 

3. It sounds like B&M bought the coin for their own account with a cut bid. If you folks will read the terms of sale you will find that most if not all of the auction houses reserve this option for themselves. And when they do that THEY do not have to pay the buyers fee, which gives them a 15% advantage over the other bidders.

 

I believe they bought it on their own account because if it just sold to the book for some other client and they then offered to sell it out from under that client to SG, they would just be trading one can of worms for another one

 

4. I think an offer to sell it to him at $500 over the winning bid would be quite fair. But since he is buying it from B&M and not an auction at that point, no 15% buyers fee. $36,000 total for the coin. That would be 15% less than he would have been able to purchase it for if he had been the successful bidder.

 

5. Can't comment on the "Lower your voice comment since I don't know how loud he was.

Condor, I think that your conclusion in #3 above might be incorrect. Yes, the person to whom the lot had originally been awarded probably would have been upset. However, the choice to award the lot to Saintguru would have been the less undesirable of the two options. Additionally, I have seen auction houses make such decisions under similar circumstances when a bid had been missed for one reason or another.

 

Re #4 - there is no way they would or should sell the coin for $36,000 net and forgo the 15% buyer's premium when another bidder had bid $40,825 ($35,500 plus the 15%). Keep in mind there is a good possibility that the owner/seller of the coin might have been getting roughly 105% of hammer via his consignment agreement with the auction house. Either way, it would make no sense for Bowers to sell the coin for $36,000 net.

[Conder101]

Re #4 - there is no way they would or should sell the coin for $36,000 net and forgo the 15% buyer's premium when another bidder had bid $40,825 ($35,500 plus the 15%). Keep in mind there is a good possibility that the owner/seller of the coin might have been getting roughly 105% of hammer via his consignment agreement with the auction house. Either way, it would make no sense for Bowers to sell the coin for $36,000 net

Unless I am right on #3 and B&M DID buy it for their own account. In which case the "other bidder" paid only $35,500 not $40,825.

 

Problems like this are why you either bid for yourself in person or have a representive there bidding for you who knows what your maximum bid is.

 

Ok after going back and re-reading the original post I can see that I am possibly wrong on #3

Oh..the bid that won, that I was not able to top appropriately...it was B&M....for the book. He said I'll sell it to you for $500 more.

 

He said it was B&M that bought it without any evidence of that. It may have simply been a regular book bid.

 

But in that case I still think it would be a very shoddy way to treat a client to sell him a coin in a open plublic auction, hammer it down to him and then the next day sell it out from under him. I realize the TOS give the auctioneer the right cancel a sale or reopen a lot, but the next DAY? To do so MAY have placated SG but it definitely would have pissed off the winning bidder.

[MarkFeld]

Re #4 - there is no way they would or should sell the coin for $36,000 net and forgo the 15% buyer's premium when another bidder had bid $40,825 ($35,500 plus the 15%). Keep in mind there is a good possibility that the owner/seller of the coin might have been getting roughly 105% of hammer via his consignment agreement with the auction house. Either way, it would make no sense for Bowers to sell the coin for $36,000 net

Unless I am right on #3 and B&M DID buy it for their own account. In which case the "other bidder" paid only $35,500 not $40,825.

 

Problems like this are why you either bid for yourself in person or have a representive there bidding for you who knows what your maximum bid is.

Even if you are right on #3, the owner/seller of the coin might be due approximately 105% of hammer, in which case the auction house would still lose money.

[saintguru-migration]

Welcome to the NGC forums!

 

OK fellows. Let's just clarify a few things for thise who didn't read the original text or who don't know me and how I think.

 

I never expect something for nothing. I participate in auctions all the time, many in person, many times with Heritage either on the phone or represented by my trusted friend, Todd Imhoff.

 

I was mildly interested in this lot at B&M. I had not seen the coin so I called Steve Deeds on Wed., who I have always had a very cordial relationship with and asked him to look at it for me. I wasn't being naiive in thinking he's be biased because Steve knows me, knows that I will pay up for high end stuff and have no interest in mediocre coins. That said, he called back with a very positive description of the coin. I trust Steve.

 

THEN....brace yourselves, cowboys....I called another good friend, Mr. Mark Feld....and asked HIM to look at the coin. Mark is a tough-eye, and with his blessing I would feel A-OK bidding. Mark liked it, I thanked him and decided that I'd give it a shot.

 

Now...a 1922-S is a conditional rarity which never turned me on much. I have been offered most of the approx.10 that exist, in the $34-36K range, but I always felt that my money was better spent elsewhere. Look at HAG archives and you wont see one that sold for more than 36K with the juice. So why didn't SG just "GO the extra $500?" Because I felt that I was too high at 35K hammer to begin with, because I was still reeling from what had happened the night before and because the way it was presented to me wasn't in the most sincere and conciliatory manner. It was slightly more like, "HERE...You want to buy it for 36K?!?"

 

Now I have some pride, and I don't bite at that kind of offer, considering everything I mentioned previously regarding this coin. I just wasn't going to conceed after all the mistakes from the night before and let things all disappear before he even said he was sorry about the way they went. It was not like offering me the coin was the absolute solution. The problem had "legs" and "just pay more" was the last thing I was prepared to do. Fact is, I talked myself out of the coin after it sold. I have a great cognitive dissonance. (where's the damn laughing emoticon?)

 

Look, I said it on the other board and to Mark on the phone; Had Steve been more diplomatic and less defensive, had he said, "Jay, I'm sorry, we clearly F*ed up, I don't know how...perhaps I can try to make it up to you in the future..." I would have said, fine, end of story, thanks, no harm done. But whatever the heat of the moment brought on, Steve should have taken a deep breath, perhaps asked for a few hours to think before making a rash decision, or whatever. I was NOT swearing, abusive or any louder than anyone here would have been. I was upset in principle because had this been a BIG coin that I really wanted, I'd have been SOL. And Steve wasn't letting me talk, and when I said "hold on a minute, let me finish", that's when he took the "I'll end this call if you don't lower your voice" offensive. That's just wrong. It flips the table and I reacted as most would.

 

This is not a condemnation of B&M as it might have sounded.( I did change the title after reading it enought imes to realize that it was too harsh.) It's a disappointment in their process or lack of such, it's a wake-up call that they MUST to do some very basic problem solving, and it's my criticism of poor damage control.

 

That's my story and I'm stickin' with it. **small smile emoticon**

 

Saintguru/Jay Brahin

[MarkFeld]

Welcome Jay and it's good to see you post here!

[saintguru-migration]

Welcome Jay and it's good to see you post here!

 

 

At least I can expose your propaganda now, Feldini