When you purchase your next NGC or PCGS graded coin from a dealer....

[Doogy]

here is my two cents:

 

IF i were going to buy a higher priced US coin ( i say this, as i collect mostly British and German higher-end stuff), I would feel better seeing the sticker on the slab. To me, the more expert eyes on a coin the better. Would i pay a huge premium for the coin that was stickered; no, certainly not. I also wouldn't require the seller to submit it for CAC approval either.

 

John Albense and his folks are trying to level the playing field, so to speak, kind of like the 'big 2' TPGs did 20 years ago.

 

 

[Doogy]

"....The collector that thinks they can detect all that as well as an industry leading expert is fooling themselves." [Tradedollarnut]

 

I agree. It is very naive to think that one can be a successful lone ranger in evaluating and collecting coins---even the most experienced specialty collectors, people with considerable knowledge in their favored coin series, frequently ask for second and third opinions. The CAC service is about an additional opinion buying peace of mind. Most collectors will have no need for CAC grade verification---they simply don't collect coins that warrant this (or even TPG certification) from a purely financial point of view. I wouldn't be concerned about buying a $3K coin without a CAC sticker, but this would be a consideration for a $10K purchase, for example. More advanced collectors with deeper pockets might (particularly in instances where AT or other subtle forms of surface alteration might be a concern) draw the line at a higher figure. As the financial downside associated with purchasing a coin increases, should a problem subsequently surface, using the CAC service seems increasingly advisable (even if the coin in question is one for which the NGC/PCGS pop total is very low).

 

A lot of the CAC-related controversy on the forum, and the other one, seems to stem from a widespread fear the CAC will cause serious, widespread price increases. I don't see this happening. What I don't like about CAC is the thought that some will use this as a crutch, as they use TPGs, and fail to invest the time needed to properly learn to grade what they are collecting.

 

Someone finally hit on my opinion. CAC is a decent idea for when you are spending gobs of cash on what is supposed to be a truly rare or high end coin. How many of us are in the market to constantly buy and trade 10K, 20K, or 30K coins? I know there are a couple on this board, but the bulk of us are more of the $100-1000 coin collectors. You make a mistake in that range, big deal, you move on. I hope that these silly CAC discussions end, for I do not really see the point of all this nonsense.

 

 

 

Bingo! I get tired of the drama with modern collectors bashing the CAC and people like CC that just try to stir the pot. the CAC wasn't created for "everyman" like the TPGs are. They don't accept all coins, and most people that will submit have coins worth a good sized chunk of change. This whole venture is for a much smaller minority of collectors than the TPGs. The only reason i can see that so many want to stir the pot when they don't even collect the series/types of coins that the CAC is there to "protect", are those who just love drama (and keeping it going).

[Doogy]

Bruce,

 

I can't imagine any doctored coin getting past both PCGS (or, NGC) and you, as a collector, within the series you specialize in.

 

I honestly don't believe you need the CAC to spot a doctored coin that both you and the Service did not. At best, all they would do is confirm your own conclusion. No doctor is that good so as to fool both PCGS and you (but not the CAC).

 

Perhaps you are placing too much credence on CAC's grading abilities and not enough emphasis on your own skill set.

 

Either way, do you truly believe you need the CAC?

 

The only thing that comes to mind in reading your response to Bruce (which is well thought out, by the way), is a post that David Hall wrote ATS a year or more ago. He mentioned in his post that the best grading eyes in the business belong to John Albanese, and he also listed a few others (which I then found funny, as one of the gentleman listed posted to the thread blasting PCGS for loosening it's grading over the years). IF I were collecting the coins that Bruce does, and I do not, I too would consume myself in knowing everything about them (like he does). This enriches your collecting experience, as well as keeping you safe from being ripped off. Further, using a trusted TPG like NGC and PCGS is a very wise thing, as you are having more experts look at your coins. Lastly, why would it hurt to then have what DH considers to be the 'best eyes in the business' looking at the coin(s)? He may or may not notice something that Bruce and the other NGC/PCGS graders didn't, and may know a new coin doctoring technicque that is relatively unknown to many professional graders? For the price that the CAC charges, it's expert graders, and the amount of money that US scarce/rare coins go for these days, why not have the extra eyes?

[MarkFeld]

you're right Dave...and I was trying to illustrate that point. The CAC won't apply to me or effect me or many collectors I know. This will be my last post on them, but I felt the need for a parting question............

 

You 3 who are so adamantly in the CAC corner-you HONESTLY believe that the CDC is going to catch doctored or fake coins that : the initial owner missed, the dealer or submitter missed and all of the pros who handled the coin through the grading process? I do not doubt that some may slip by, but if a coin is that expertly faked/AT'd or whatever that so many people mistook it for genuine when holding the actual coin...CDC is going to miraculously discover it through its scuffy plastic holder---where the tools of weighing, measuring and rim inspection are also not available? I want some of what you're smoking...

It might be completely irrelevant whether the initial owner and/or submitter caught a problem before submitting the coin for grading. If the grading company ends up missing it or ignoring it, the submitter probably isn't going to subsequently insist that the coin be down-graded or body-bagged.

 

I'm curious, do you have the same objections to coin owners sending their coins from NGC to PCGS or PCGS to NGC for crossover?

 

By the way, there are at least two other potentially important considerations for a number of collectors and dealers, but which were not mentioned in your post:

 

1) There will probably (or, if you prefer, possibly) be healthy sight unseen bids and markets in many CAC coins. That could help collectors (who might have coins to sell) as well as dealers, even if they don't wish to buy CAC coins.

 

2) Some of us will prefer the efficiency and potential advantages of being able to look through groups of CAC coins, rather than weeding through much larger numbers of coins which are probably of less potential interest to us.

 

Let me ask you this - if you had a choice between a coin that PCGS graded MS65 but NGC graded MS64 (or that NGC graded MS65 but that PCGS graded MS64,) or one that both companies graded MS65, wouldn't you prefer the latter?

[MikeInFL]

Bingo! I get tired of the drama with modern collectors bashing the CAC and people like CC that just try to stir the pot. the CAC wasn't created for "everyman" like the TPGs are. They don't accept all coins, and most people that will submit have coins worth a good sized chunk of change. This whole venture is for a much smaller minority of collectors than the TPGs. The only reason i can see that so many want to stir the pot when they don't even collect the series/types of coins that the CAC is there to "protect", are those who just love drama (and keeping it going).

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, are you aware some TPGs didn't accept modern coins when they started? The point being, the TPGs weren't created for "everyman" any more than the CAC was/is...Mike

[carson city]

Things appear to be simple for simple people-----Albert Einstein

[MunkyMan95]

I could care less about the CAC. (actually, I probably couldn't care any less than I already do)

[Doogy]

Things appear to be simple for simple people-----Albert Einstein

 

He who simply quotes others, has no real thoughts of his own.------ Doogy

[Doogy]

Bingo! I get tired of the drama with modern collectors bashing the CAC and people like CC that just try to stir the pot. the CAC wasn't created for "everyman" like the TPGs are. They don't accept all coins, and most people that will submit have coins worth a good sized chunk of change. This whole venture is for a much smaller minority of collectors than the TPGs. The only reason i can see that so many want to stir the pot when they don't even collect the series/types of coins that the CAC is there to "protect", are those who just love drama (and keeping it going).

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, are you aware some TPGs didn't accept modern coins when they started? The point being, the TPGs weren't created for "everyman" any more than the CAC was/is...Mike

 

Mike,

 

Sure, i'm aware of that fact. However, one of the key aspects with the CAC is keeping the market relatively stable, from a grading perspective, and giving a second set of eyes on a relatively rare coin that may be the victim of doctoring, et cetera. Aside from obvious AT jobs, you don't see too many modern coins that are doctored, and i'd guess that you won't find the CAC rushing to certify run-of-the-mill modern coins anytime soon.

 

 

TPGs have marketed themselves as giants in the industry, and they are. From the start, their whole gig was grading. Mr. Albanese and the other parties to this venture have other coin gigs going on; i'd suspect they have no reason to appeal to "everyman" and open up a huge audience that could possibly flood them with submissions. They have their niche, and i'd guess they will be quite happy with it.

 

[CHABSENTIA]

I hear a lot of people discussing the final act of Stickering a coin with a CAC Sticker but nothing of the costs before it.

 

1.Lets say I want to send in some Morgans and I feel that they are valued at $250.00. If I send in 5 coins at once I will qualify for the reduced fee of $16.00 per coin.If I feel that it is a Vam then I pay a $7.00 Variety plus fee for a total of $23.00 .

2. What does CAC charge for the sticker?I heard it was $20.00. Now we are to a cost of $23.00 + $20.00 or $43.00. Are they going to charge extra for the Vam designation? Before that we are at fees that are about 17% of the value of the coin. Who do you think is going to pay all these fees? Does anybody think the grading companies or the dealers afre going to eat them or pass them on to the buyer?

 

I see two things happening here. One is an increased cost for the coin/s.The other is that nobody will want to send in a coin worth less than $750.00 because of the added fees.

 

Gee I wonder who will benefit here.It wouldn't be CAC who only stickers slabs or the dealers that will have higher Margins because of the increased lower limit on the coins they sell?

 

Why do I or anybody else need another opinion?Lets say a person performs a certain function in the workplace.Let us say that person is a Auto Mechanic.TO make sure that the work meets a certain standard then shall we have somebody check each and every job and then pass on the extra price to the Consumer?

 

[bsshog40]

I agree with you doogy as I really don't have much thought towards the CAC, as I don't own, and probably will never own a coin that would need to be stickered to tell me if the TPG did it right anyway. As stated before, this service is not for the everyday collector such as myself!

[MAULEMALL]

Things appear to be simple for simple people-----Albert Einstein

 

He who simply quotes others, has no real thoughts of his own.------ Doogy

hm hm

[MikeKing]

I believe the fee is $10 for coins values up to $500 and $20 for coins valued up to $5,000.00. Whatever the case, if they don't cut their prices in half, I'd be surprised if they survive as a company.

[Revenant]

I believe the fee is $10 for coins values up to $500 and $20 for coins valued up to $5,000.00. Whatever the case, if they don't cut their prices in half, I'd be surprised if they survive as a company.

 

Don't forget shipping...

[MikeKing]

on the other hand, thinking back to a time I was totally burned on a $4,000 coin that was graded by a tpg when it was polished, makes me wonder if it is worth it.

[Arizonadesertrat]

"You 3 who are so adamantly in the CAC corner-you HONESTLY believe that the CDC is going to catch doctored or fake coins that : the initial owner missed, the dealer or submitter missed and all of the pros who handled the coin through the grading process? I do not doubt that some may slip by, but if a coin is that expertly faked/AT'd or whatever that so many people mistook it for genuine when holding the actual coin...CDC is going to miraculously discover it through its scuffy plastic holder---where the tools of weighing, measuring and rim inspection are also not available? I want some of what you're smoking... " [jackson64]

 

I don't smoke, and think that perhaps some sense of perspective is in order. I was collecting coins 25-40 years ago, and then quit as a result of several bad experiences with dealers. Back then, there was a good deal of dealer misrepresentation going on (worse than now). A collector walking into a B&M had about the same the odds of getting a fair deal as surviving a stroll into a lion's den (and there were many more dealers than today), so a lot of us got financially beaten up. I returned to the hobby last January, weeded my collection, bought ca. 50 books (and read them), subscribed to NN and CW, started reading the coin forums on the web, talking to lots of other collectors and dealers. And I have noticed that some of the bad aspects of the business end of numismatics haven't changed, TPGs notwithstanding. Right now, my guess is that 15-20% of the certified coins that I have looked at since January are very low end or overgraded. Dealers are complaining that they cannot get fresh coins, and what collectors see in dealer displays are increasingly coins that they shouldn't buy unless they simply don't care if their purchases retain their values.

 

TPGs have helped to level the collector-dealer playing field in the sense that dealers tend to be reluctant to downgrade a PCGS/NGC certified coin brought in by a collector for possible sale. However, few dealers will openly acknowledge that any certified, low-end or overgraded coins in their inventories are less than indicated on their holders. There are plenty of dealers who want PQ prices for everything, including dross. While novice collectors and investors will be fooled by coins that would never trip up experienced collectors, there are lots of problem coins that will fool both and fool many dealers as well. Many collectors (and some younger dealers) don't know how to grade what they collect, so the first layer of buyer protection just isn't there for these collectors.

 

It takes many years, if not decades, of experience for a collector to reliably spot subtle problems with coins in his collecting area(s). What are collectors to do until they acquire this kind of knowledge? What about type collectors? The issues that Tradedollarnut and others allude to involve far more than straightforward grading (e.g., MS64 vs. MS65 or AU58 vs. MS64) and its variants, which can be quite contentious (just look at other threads on this forum, like 'market grading'). There are many coins that have been doctored---they are genuine, with no altered dates or mint marks, but have 'enhanced' surfaces. In such instances, the tools of weighing, measuring, and rim inspection are mostly worthless. And these alterations (AT, puttying, thumbing, etc.) can fool very experienced collectors and even graders.

 

Professional grading is not a reflective, slow process. Graders usually go through more than 2 coins per minute, on average. At a glance, they can spot subtleties that would take nonprofessionals, including most dealers, 5-10 minutes (or more). However, rapid grading likely leads to an increased spread in grades relative to 'true' grades. High-end coins get sucked out by crack-out artists (and become higher-graded, low-end coins). What's left looks increasingly unappetizing to me, and I have been repeatedly shocked by what I have seen in first-tier TPG holders, particularly coins with obvious artificial toning, polishing, or abrasive cleaning. The grading system is broken, and the fact that there is so much discussion about what TPG certified a coin and when the coin was certified (e.g., is it in a rattler or fattie holder?) means that other collectors don't place any real faith in the accuracy of the grade on a slab either. If I use your argument concerning CAC, then perhaps I would conclude that we would be better off without TPGs. [i don't advocate this.]

 

It will take a long time for overgraded, certified coins to work their way through the marketplace, and who wants to crack one of these out and start the grading process over again? There remains the issue of coins that are not overgraded, but low-end for their (certified) grades. Most collectors, even some pseudo-advanced ones, will not see enough coins of a given type to stay away from these (or at least recognize them for what they are and pay appropriately less if that's what they want).

 

Until a method is developed to reliably grade coins by imaging and signal processing, grading will remain an imperfect exercise. Don't expect CAC to catch everything problematic that gets by NGC or PCGS, but additional, expert opinions should be helpful (especially when the financial downside might be significant). And I am amazed at the litany of complaints concerning CAC pricing---don't expect people to spend their time for free.

 

What passes for grading standards are nothing of the sort. The marketplace is a free-for-all, with new schemes repeatedly invented to entice the public to buy coins, many of which involve some form of positive grade manipulation. That this is tolerated by collectors and the ANA continually amazes me. CAC is probably not the optimal solution to the problem, but it is MUCH better than just sitting around and b**ching. If CAC turns out to be ineffective in cleaning up the mess, I would advocate forming collecting organizations, perhaps along the lines of the EAC, whose members adhere to rigorous grading standards independent of whatever silliness the rest of the marketplace engages in.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Bruce,

 

I can't imagine any doctored coin getting past both PCGS (or, NGC) and you, as a collector, within the series you specialize in.

 

I honestly don't believe you need the CAC to spot a doctored coin that both you and the Service did not. At best, all they would do is confirm your own conclusion. No doctor is that good so as to fool both PCGS and you (but not the CAC).

 

Perhaps you are placing too much credence on CAC's grading abilities and not enough emphasis on your own skill set.

 

Either way, do you truly believe you need the CAC?

 

Yes, I believe that CAC is necessary. There have already been extremely positive results from its formation even before it stickered its first coin.

 

BTW - There is a proven AT Gobrecht in a PCGS holder. There are coins that I used to own when I first moved into seated dollars that I am fairly convinced are not original. Absolutely positively there will be coins that got past PCGS and NGC that won't get past CAC - if only because of the time factor. Doctored coins tend to turn in the holder after a few months and there will be many coins that meet that time delay.

[carson city]

When dealers cannot get their inventory CAC stickered, the reality that CAC stickers are the "sticking" point to making a sale will become a financial reality for the dealers. The Dealers along with the coin collecting hobbists will say POOF to CAC !

[Houston Investor]

No - I would purchase the coin based on my opinion of the coin. I do not need CAC to tell me a coin meets my grading standards. Nor would I pay a premium for a CAC stickered coin. Frankly, considering the high cost of stickering coins based on the CAC website, I just can't see a dealer paying this for any but pricey coins in the $2500 range and above. Then he has the problem of explaining or getting rid of the ones that did not make it with CAC.

 

I did currency for years when there was no TPG for currency whatsoever. I remember everybody joking about the guy who would bring his chemistry stuff along to the shows (hotel room) with him and the AU note he bought on Friday would be a nice Unc on Saturday. His ad in BNR is probably a who's who of notes that have been worked with and I am sure he liked the nice hotels with the iron in the room. I stayed away from the pricey stuff when shopping the bourse.

[braddick]

Bruce,

 

I can't imagine any doctored coin getting past both PCGS (or, NGC) and you, as a collector, within the series you specialize in.

 

I honestly don't believe you need the CAC to spot a doctored coin that both you and the Service did not. At best, all they would do is confirm your own conclusion. No doctor is that good so as to fool both PCGS and you (but not the CAC).

 

Perhaps you are placing too much credence on CAC's grading abilities and not enough emphasis on your own skill set.

 

Either way, do you truly believe you need the CAC?

 

Yes, I believe that CAC is necessary. There have already been extremely positive results from its formation even before it stickered its first coin.

 

BTW - There is a proven AT Gobrecht in a PCGS holder. There are coins that I used to own when I first moved into seated dollars that I am fairly convinced are not original. Absolutely positively there will be coins that got past PCGS and NGC that won't get past CAC - if only because of the time factor. Doctored coins tend to turn in the holder after a few months and there will be many coins that meet that time delay.

 

I appreciate your response. Specifically though, to answer my question, Do you believe YOU need the CAC?

 

(As an aside... is THIS the Gobrecht you are talking about?)

[Tradedollarnut]

Yes, I think that I need a second opinion on many of my coin purchases and the CAC provides that level of security.

 

No, that specific Gobrecht may or may not be original [not, imo] but it hasn't been PROVEN to be AT. There's another that has been PROVEN - came from an NCS holder [white] to a PCGS holder [toned].

[ldhair]

CAC is offering an additional expert opinion which some have no need for and others desire. To each his own as far as I'm concerned

I agree and understand that I will never be an expert on everything.

Any expert opinion helps me in some way and I have no problem paying them for the help. Let it be CAC, TPG or a great dealer it's all the same. Some may not need CAC but there are those that do. I find it easy to understand that the more expert opinions I have, the better decisions I make.

[Arizonadesertrat]

When dealers cannot get their inventory CAC stickered, the reality that CAC stickers are the "sticking" point to making a sale will become a financial reality for the dealers. The Dealers along with the coin collecting hobbists will say POOF to CAC !

 

NO. Using your argument, the current TPGs would be history by now. Plenty of dealers are selling raw coins today. The real questions are whether CAC's market and grading accuracy are sufficient for it to remain viable beyond the next 5 years or so.

[CHABSENTIA]

I have sent Silver Eagles in for grading and the cost is $12.50 in the Modern Tier if you send in a minimum of 5 coins.

 

I am now sending Morgans and the fee is $16.00 per coin if you send in a minimum of 5 coins.It is $7.00 more for Variety plus.Unless you send in bulk which applies to dealers there is no cheaper than $12.50.

 

I beleive that ANACS has a $10.00 Tier.

[DC Dawg]

ScottB, Wishing doesn't make it so----Dawson Bethrick

But I can also hit the REPORT button and discuss with the system moderators whether the condition exists that got you suspended the first time!

 

[CHABSENTIA]

Exactly.Which was my point earlier in that some of the slabbed coins will not have a Market if CAC considers them low end coins. I don't know that anybody is " complaining" about the increased cost that will be passed on to the Collector.Just stating that there will have to be increased Costs.

 

To justify the expense the small coolector will be forced to deal on the lower end.

[CHABSENTIA]

Exactly.

[Doogy]

Exactly.Which was my point earlier in that some of the slabbed coins will not have a Market if CAC considers them low end coins. I don't know that anybody is " complaining" about the increased cost that will be passed on to the Collector.Just stating that there will have to be increased Costs.

 

To justify the expense the small coolector will be forced to deal on the lower end.

 

when the CAC info debuted several months back, you didn't see anything stating from them that "only big dollar coins need apply" and/or "we're here for the deeper pocketed collector". The CAC will grade coins of lesser value, but then the question becomes "why"? Why would a person get a whole slew of common stuff graded that is under say, $300 by the CAC? they have already paid $20 or so, with shipping, to have a TPG grade it. For that same $20, they can buy a book and start learning to grade these coins themselves.

 

I think the CAC fills a void, the higher priced stuff that may need another set of expert eyes on it to protect the collector. You get stiffed with a $100 cleaned coin in a 'big 2' TPG holder it hurts; you get stuck with a $25,000 coin with nice toning, but obvious cleaning hairlines that the TPG either missed or net graded, and it'll feel like a shovel to the face. The coins that trade for a somewhat reasonable amount probably won't ever see the CAC. The stuff that goes for a lot of money in the major auction houses, will probably be paying the CAC a visit. I can't see how the latter will hurt the value of, or add extra expense to the former.

 

 

[michael]

will you make the sale contingent upon the coin being CAC approved ?

 

NO...................................

 

because my own standards and best interest..............

 

are way better than cac standards and their interest in my interests

 

 

 

 

 

[Zoins]

Yes, I think that I need a second opinion on many of my coin purchases and the CAC provides that level of security.

 

No, that specific Gobrecht may or may not be original [not, imo] but it hasn't been PROVEN to be AT. There's another that has been PROVEN - came from an NCS holder [white] to a PCGS holder [toned].

I've been wondering what value the CAC would provide in a situation like this after the fact (unless we think the CAC is 100% foolproof). A little while ago I asked if CAC would compensate the buyer of a coin like this if it was stickered by CAC and then proven to be AT after the fact and the TPG did not think it was a problem. The major TPGs net grade rare coins per their policy. I believe the speculation at the time was that the CAC wouldn't do anything and the owner would still have to resolve the issue with the TPG even though the CAC had offered their opinion as well. Is that the case or will the CAC compensate the owner, say to the tune of $26,000. What would the CAC do in a case like this?

 

So far it seems that CAC stickering does not mean the coin is original and also does not mean the coin has not been market graded. Additionally, while we may make a fuss about mechanical errors, it's unclear if the CAC would stand by their opinion on a coin like the AT Gobrecht, if exposed after the fact. I don't mind a second opinion but I'd prefer the second opinion to be based on things like originality and technical vs market grading. A guarantee wouldn't hurt either.

 

For high end coins, I think CAC approval can be a nice to have and a "feel good" but it seems that CAC coins can be unoriginal, market graded and you'd still have to rely on the TPG guarantee, not a CAC guarantee. I have nothing against the CAC, I'm just not sure what the concrete benefits are. I'm hoping to find out which is why I ask questions. Until I find some, it's a nice to have, not a must have.