When you purchase your next NGC or PCGS graded coin from a dealer....

[carson city]

will you make the sale contingent upon the coin being CAC approved ?

 

If not, why not ?

 

If so, why ?

[cpm9ball]

No, as a matter of fact, I'd probably ask for a discount for defacing the slab.

 

Why do I need a 4th party to tell me if I should like a coin or not?

 

Chris

[carson city]

Ouch !

[okbustchaser]

No, as a matter of fact, I'd probably ask for a discount for defacing the slab.

 

Why do I need a 4th party to tell me if I should like a coin or not?

 

Chris

 

The real question is "Why do you need a third party to tell you if you should like a coin or not?".

[Tradedollarnut]

No, but if it is CAC approved that would be a plus.

[bsshog40]

I really don't see a need for a CAC sticker at this present time. I think as/if the company grows and becomes reputable, then this thought may come into picture in the future.

[Mirrored Morgan]

The CAC sticker will give beginning novice collectors the peace of mind that they need when purchasing coins. After they have collected for a period of time, they hopefully will have learned how to grade the coins that they collect. Then they will not need to rely on a CAC sticker to help make their decision.

[braddick]

I think I'd rather pay less for a coin I know the CAC would approve, yet they haven't seen, rather than pay more (for the same coin) that they have seen and have given their nod of approval.

 

It is elementary determining what would be approved by the CAC and what wouldn't.

[DC Dawg]

I would rather buy a coin that fit my collection that I liked regardless of the certification or decoration that the holder has.

 

I also wish Carson City would stop trying to denigrate the CAC. We are all aware of where he stands on this issue. However, now that it is here, I would like to let market forces determine its fate without the continuing posting pollution.

 

Scott

[Stanley]

will you make the sale contingent upon the coin being CAC approved ?

 

If not, why not ?

 

If so, why ?

I would not make a trade contingent upon CAC approval, however for obvious reasons I would hope my selection would be within the range of there criteria.

[DirtyGoldMan]

The CAC sticker will give beginning novice collectors the peace of mind that they need when purchasing coins. After they have collected for a period of time, they hopefully will have learned how to grade the coins that they collect. Then they will not need to rely on a CAC sticker to help make their decision.

 

Substitute PCGS for CAC, and you could have used the exact same quote for PCGS in 1986:

 

"The PCGS certification will give beginning novice collectors the peace of mind that they need when purchasing coins. After they have collected for a period of time, they hopefully will have learned how to grade the coins that they collect. Then they will not need to rely on a PCGS certification to help make their decision."

 

We all know how that story played out.

 

As to the answer for the OP, no, I will not require that the coin be stickered or stickerable.

[Tradedollarnut]

The CAC sticker will give beginning novice collectors the peace of mind that they need when purchasing coins. After they have collected for a period of time, they hopefully will have learned how to grade the coins that they collect. Then they will not need to rely on a CAC sticker to help make their decision.

 

I have collected coins for almost 40 years. I won the PCGS World Series of Grading [collector division] the first year and came in second the 2nd year. I can grade my series as well or better than any collector. Yet I cannot consistently detect the alterations that the coin doctors can do to coins these days. Enhanced luster, lasering, puttying, detail strengthening, artificial toning, complete rebuilds, accelerated toning, etc. They are so good that I need backup.

 

The collector that thinks they can detect all that as well as an industry leading expert is fooling themselves.

[Conder101]

SageRad beat me to it, but rather than PCGS I was going to be a bit more generic and replace "CAC sticker" with "slab" and jump back to 1987 - 88. And back then that same statement, or one very similar WAS being made to promote the slabbing concept. If that statement was true, why do we need CAC stickers now? And if it wasn't true, then how true is it today with regard to the stickers?

 

I think we will see the same result. The slab (Sticker) will encourage the beginning novice collector to depend on the slab grade and they will never bother to learn how to grade. Eventually they will be sold low end coins for premium prices and someday in order to "correct the abuses" a 5PG will come along to approve of the stickers.

[James_OldeTowne]

I might ask if the coin is deserving of a "Snicker", and if it is, send it off to SNAC©.

[jackson64]

Your point is well taken TDN--if not a little blunt (foolish?) and too inclusive. I consider myself a very good grader, if not even a little stricter than any TPG's. I steer completely away from coins that look questionable. I also could care less about what grade the slab says...I buy a lot of nicer 64's than their higher priced 65 cousins I see. One thing you said recently really makes sense--why pay $5000 for the same grade coin that sells for $500, but is missing a tiny bit of a Full Head or has a nick on a bell line or center band.... ( I still look for full skirt lines though )

I don't collect for registry points and only buy what appeals to me for my money. If I don't care about the slab or grade it says--why should I care about the sticker?

 

Not to speak for other people.....I have 3 friends and 1 family member who collect coins in one way or the other. Two friends still collect only albums and tease me that I can't even touch or hold my coins. Another friend, collects albums and mint sets. My step-grandpa (a long story) has every proof set from 1950, all the state quarters (rolls from banks) and his annual $50 GAE and $1 SAE......

 

All four of these dedicated collectors don't care if there are stickers on slabs...

 

[MarkFeld]

I steer completely away from coins that look questionable.

That makes good sense. However, I believe that part of Bruce's post was speaking about coins which might not look questionable, but which, though not apparent to most, have still been messed with.

[James_OldeTowne]

I steer completely away from coins that look questionable.

That makes good sense. However, I believe that part of Bruce's post was speaking about coins which might not look questionable, but which, though not apparent to most, have still been messed with.

But, isn't that why you buy such coins slabbed in the first place? Because of the guarantee?

[Arizonadesertrat]

"....The collector that thinks they can detect all that as well as an industry leading expert is fooling themselves." [Tradedollarnut]

 

I agree. It is very naive to think that one can be a successful lone ranger in evaluating and collecting coins---even the most experienced specialty collectors, people with considerable knowledge in their favored coin series, frequently ask for second and third opinions. The CAC service is about an additional opinion buying peace of mind. Most collectors will have no need for CAC grade verification---they simply don't collect coins that warrant this (or even TPG certification) from a purely financial point of view. I wouldn't be concerned about buying a $3K coin without a CAC sticker, but this would be a consideration for a $10K purchase, for example. More advanced collectors with deeper pockets might (particularly in instances where AT or other subtle forms of surface alteration might be a concern) draw the line at a higher figure. As the financial downside associated with purchasing a coin increases, should a problem subsequently surface, using the CAC service seems increasingly advisable (even if the coin in question is one for which the NGC/PCGS pop total is very low).

 

A lot of the CAC-related controversy on the forum, and the other one, seems to stem from a widespread fear the CAC will cause serious, widespread price increases. I don't see this happening. What I don't like about CAC is the thought that some will use this as a crutch, as they use TPGs, and fail to invest the time needed to properly learn to grade what they are collecting.

[MarkFeld]

I steer completely away from coins that look questionable.

That makes good sense. However, I believe that part of Bruce's post was speaking about coins which might not look questionable, but which, though not apparent to most, have still been messed with.

But, isn't that why you buy such coins slabbed in the first place? Because of the guarantee?

Yes, that/the guarantee is one reason that many people buy slabbed coins and, in many cases, at the higher prices that result. Yet it's well established that even the best grading companies make grading errors and/or let doctored coins slip by and into their holders. CAC is offering an additional expert opinion which some have no need for and others desire. To each his own as far as I'm concerned.

[Tradedollarnut]

I steer completely away from coins that look questionable.

That makes good sense. However, I believe that part of Bruce's post was speaking about coins which might not look questionable, but which, though not apparent to most, have still been messed with.

But, isn't that why you buy such coins slabbed in the first place? Because of the guarantee?

 

The way the grade guarantee works is such that if you buy an MS65 [for example], you are pretty much assured that it's no worse than an MS64.7 or you'll be compensated .... I suppose if that's good enough for you, then all is fine.

 

Just don't get stuck with any 'mechanical errors'.

[carson city]

ScottB, Wishing doesn't make it so----Dawson Bethrick

[kryptonitecomics]

No, but if it is CAC approved that would be a plus.

 

 

I agree.....can't hurt to have the sticker on the holder regardless of the fact that it wouldn't change my decision. (thumbs u

[bsshog40]

I may be off base here, but who will compensate? TPG's usually garrantee thier grade, but if CAC does not give a sticker for a peticular coin becuase it doesn't seem to qualify for the grade it has, do you think the TPG is going to admit it's not graded right because it couldn't get stickered and then compensate you for it? I may have gotten lost in this topic somewhere.

[MarkFeld]

...but if CAC does not give a sticker for a peticular coin becuase it doesn't seem to qualify for the grade it has, do you think the TPG is going to admit it's not graded right because it couldn't get stickered and then compensate you for it?

No.

[MBA101]

"....The collector that thinks they can detect all that as well as an industry leading expert is fooling themselves." [Tradedollarnut]

 

I agree. It is very naive to think that one can be a successful lone ranger in evaluating and collecting coins---even the most experienced specialty collectors, people with considerable knowledge in their favored coin series, frequently ask for second and third opinions. The CAC service is about an additional opinion buying peace of mind. Most collectors will have no need for CAC grade verification---they simply don't collect coins that warrant this (or even TPG certification) from a purely financial point of view. I wouldn't be concerned about buying a $3K coin without a CAC sticker, but this would be a consideration for a $10K purchase, for example. More advanced collectors with deeper pockets might (particularly in instances where AT or other subtle forms of surface alteration might be a concern) draw the line at a higher figure. As the financial downside associated with purchasing a coin increases, should a problem subsequently surface, using the CAC service seems increasingly advisable (even if the coin in question is one for which the NGC/PCGS pop total is very low).

 

A lot of the CAC-related controversy on the forum, and the other one, seems to stem from a widespread fear the CAC will cause serious, widespread price increases. I don't see this happening. What I don't like about CAC is the thought that some will use this as a crutch, as they use TPGs, and fail to invest the time needed to properly learn to grade what they are collecting.

 

Someone finally hit on my opinion. CAC is a decent idea for when you are spending gobs of cash on what is supposed to be a truly rare or high end coin. How many of us are in the market to constantly buy and trade 10K, 20K, or 30K coins? I know there are a couple on this board, but the bulk of us are more of the $100-1000 coin collectors. You make a mistake in that range, big deal, you move on. I hope that these silly CAC discussions end, for I do not really see the point of all this nonsense.

 

 

[jackson64]

you're right Dave...and I was trying to illustrate that point. The CAC won't apply to me or effect me or many collectors I know. This will be my last post on them, but I felt the need for a parting question............

 

You 3 who are so adamantly in the CAC corner-you HONESTLY believe that the CDC is going to catch doctored or fake coins that : the initial owner missed, the dealer or submitter missed and all of the pros who handled the coin through the grading process? I do not doubt that some may slip by, but if a coin is that expertly faked/AT'd or whatever that so many people mistook it for genuine when holding the actual coin...CDC is going to miraculously discover it through its scuffy plastic holder---where the tools of weighing, measuring and rim inspection are also not available? I want some of what you're smoking...

[James_OldeTowne]

The way the grade guarantee works is such that if you buy an MS65 [for example], you are pretty much assured that it's no worse than an MS64.7 or you'll be compensated .... I suppose if that's good enough for you, then all is fine.

Wait a minute. Does this mean there is a stated (written) CAC guarantee that upon resubmission, a previously stickered coin will be anonymously (i.e. the sticker "hidden") reappraised, and if it then fails to meet with approval, I would get 130% of the coin's alleged value?

 

(I'm using 30% as a number that I'm assuming the sight-unseen bids would be raised by.)

 

The problem I see with this is that the CAC is maintaining a database by serial number of what coins are stickered. So the "re-evaluation process" could be nothing more than checking to see that if the serial number is in the database.

 

I guess I haven't seen a link to how the "grade guarantee" works. Call me confused.

[MikeInFL]

No. The only "contingencies" I have for purchasing a coin are:

 

1) I like the coin.

2) It is fairly priced.

 

Generally, I don't care if the coin is raw, in a PCGS holder, stickered by CAC, or approved by the good lord himself. There are, of course, exceptions to this rule.

 

Now selling is another matter entirely....Mike

[Keleum]

If the CAC works as Mr. Albinese has said he wants it to. Then they will make money the same way NASDAQ makers do, by volume of transactions. He even said that this sticker thing will die out, if it really catches on.

 

While they say they aren't in the "widget" business, they'll soon find out that there's a lot to be made in the efficency of moving widgets, much more so than higher value coins. Those are already bought and sold very efficently with a high level of service.

 

How do I know, I certainly don't buy high value coins, and not many widgets for that matter. Look at the TPGs, and the forces moving them to moderns. Does grading/stickering really mean anything to a 1913 V nickel.

[braddick]

Bruce,

 

I can't imagine any doctored coin getting past both PCGS (or, NGC) and you, as a collector, within the series you specialize in.

 

I honestly don't believe you need the CAC to spot a doctored coin that both you and the Service did not. At best, all they would do is confirm your own conclusion. No doctor is that good so as to fool both PCGS and you (but not the CAC).

 

Perhaps you are placing too much credence on CAC's grading abilities and not enough emphasis on your own skill set.

 

Either way, do you truly believe you need the CAC?