Thumbs up for CAC !

[CTcollector1]

As most of you already know, CAC launched to the public today at Coinfest in Connecticut. Collector's were generously permitted to submit up to 20 coins for free appraisal. An opportunity in which I had no hesitation in taking advantge of.

 

I submitted my full allotment of 20 coins at around 10:30 in the morning and received them back at about 2:00 in the afternoon. The coins I chose to submit were recently holdered (within the last 5 years or so). I decided against submitting any green tags or first generation NGC slabs as I was not sure how invasive the stickering process would be and I did not want to chance any of my older holders getting messed up. The coins submitted were basically a mix of commems and MS/PF type. 16 of the coins were graded by PCGS and 4 by NGC. All of them were gem and had color to some degree.

 

The results of the submission were 16 coins were CAC approved and 4 were not. 15 out of the 16 PCGS coins made the cut and only 1 of the 4 NGC coins got a sticker. Obviously, I was happy with the results. Of the 16 coins that received a sticker, I gained some assurance to their quality and more importantly originality of color. Regarding the 4 that did not work; 2 were high grade NGC commems that in all honesty were nice but would not cross to PCGS at the same grade and the price I paid reflected that. (last time that happens). The other 2 that did not sticker were surprises. I have concluded 1 is probably AT (had me fooled) and the other may have been expertly doctored as it has everything else going for it at arm's length.

 

So what did this collector gain from his CAC experience ?

 

1) I got reassurance that most of my collection meets the originality and technical standards I constantly strive for.

 

2) Despite all my caution and efforts, I can still miss AT. Remain vigilant.

 

3) When I don't pay PQ money for a coin, its probably not PQ.

 

4) The rest of my collection will be going in for CAC review at some time in the future.

 

5) Of the coins I submitted, I know what coins to hold and what coins to fold.

 

Regarding the stickers themselves, I am glad to report they are not invasive. They are small green (and I think gold for upgrades) holograms that get placed on the right upper obverse of the slab. It blends in with the coin description and is not an eye sore at all. However, I will say that I did not care fo the 2"x2" card taped to the back of the slab stating what CAC is, etc..... It makes it difficult to see the reverse and get into intercept shields.

 

I am pretty certain CAC will restore some much needed integrity back into the market place. I view CAC as an independent auditor of previously graded coins. This can only benefit honest collectors and dealers. I recommend those of you who were thinking of getting your feet wet with CAC to do so. For those of you who may have a negative bias towards CAC, keep an open mind.

 

Finally, to the Principals and Owners of CAC, thank you for the genreous free submission offer and best of luck with this new endeavor.

[EZ_E]

What will their fees be and will it be tiered?

[CTcollector1]

What will their fees be and will it be tiered?

 

all the info is on their website www.CACcoin.com

[EZ_E]

Thanks for the link. Their fees seem very unreasonable to me, though. Low overhead and high pricing does not impress me, regardless of the service.

[MarkFeld]

Victor, I believe that half of the fee is refunded for coins which do not receive a sticker. If you think the listed fees are unreasonable how do you feel about crossover fees offered by highly regarded third party grading companies?

 

Edited to add: Based upon millions of dollars being committed to making markets in CAC coins, I don't consider the "overhead" to be low.

[EZ_E]

Looks like I'm facing a conundrum: I have sooooo many Mark Feld rare coins....what should I do?? Should I be optimistic or pessimistic, to wit, if I send them in to CAC should I be thankful that I'll most likely receive $10 of my fee back or bummed that they're keeping ten?

---------------------------------

 

It sounds like a decent service but one that I will pass on. After all, I have an eye for quality and since I purchase a lot of my collection from you, they must receive the M.F. seal of approval as well.

 

p.s. I sent your check out last Tuesday but, since you're out funning and sunning, you probably won't pick it up for a bit yet.

 

Hope you're having a blast, Mark!

[gmarguli]

Edited to add: Based upon millions of dollars being committed to making markets in CAC coins, I don't consider the "overhead" to be low.

 

 

[kryptonitecomics]

CAC....I don't get it

 

So folks spend good money getting their coins certified and now they can pay more money to give themselves assurances that they are buying quality coins.......is that CAC's position in all of this.....quality control?

 

I don't see this service sticking around but.......I am one person in a vast market so what the heck do I know

 

 

[just-john]

is the CAC sticker on the merc dime on Ebay real .I think it looks way to big covers part of the window that shows the coin ?

[Conder101]

The sticker is the little football shaped thing on the front label. The thing on the back is just a 2X2 that is taped to the slab.

[BillJones]

The whole problem with CAC is that it imposes an additional expense that collectors should not have to bear. If CAC succeeds we will have to spend additional funds have a kibitzer certify the work of the work of PCGS and NGC. First you send the coin to NGC or PCGS. Then you have to send the certified coin to CAC to make sure that PCGS or NGC got it right. All of this will be needed to get a good price for your coin if CAC succeeds. Does anyone else see the absurdity and the unfairness here?

 

AND so much for that claim that CAC services would be FREE .

 

In addition to paying postage both ways, which is to be expected, you will pay CAC’s fees PLUS a 15% surcharge to a dealer to have the coins submitted.

 

I sincerely hope that CAC services do not become a standard for the rare coin industry. Having paid for one opinion, it is grossly unfair to force collectors and dealers to have pay a kibitzer for another.

 

If CAC thinks that they will be superior to the established grading services, they should get into the slab business. Then they will be putting their money where their mouth is.

 

 

 

[MikeKing]

ahhh...the good old days before anything...when what you could collect was the coin, and a collector learned to refine their judgement because they actually had to rely on themselves .

 

Not anymore...

 

(except for some)

[PerryHall]

The sticker is the little football shaped thing on the front label. The thing on the back is just a 2X2 that is taped to the slab.

 

Correct. Information about CAC. It's intended to be removed and read.

[djdilliodon]

The whole problem with CAC is that it imposes an additional expense that collectors should not have to bear. If CAC succeeds we will have to spend additional funds have a kibitzer certify the work of the work of PCGS and NGC. First you send the coin to NGC or PCGS. Then you have to send the certified coin to CAC to make sure that PCGS or NGC got it right. All of this will be needed to get a good price for your coin if CAC succeeds. Does anyone else see the absurdity and the unfairness here?

 

AND so much for that claim that CAC services would be FREE .

 

In addition to paying postage both ways, which is to be expected, you will pay CAC’s fees PLUS a 15% surcharge to a dealer to have the coins submitted.

 

I sincerely hope that CAC services do not become a standard for the rare coin industry. Having paid for one opinion, it is grossly unfair to force collectors and dealers to have pay a kibitzer for another.

 

If CAC thinks that they will be superior to the established grading services, they should get into the slab business. Then they will be putting their money where their mouth is.

 

 

 

ditto. Also ive read there main purpose is to "clean" up the coin industry. If they really did want to do that, why just sticker NGC and PCGS slabbs only? Wouldnt you think that it would make even more sense to add SEGS, PCI, ANACS, ICG ect ect ? Those are the graders that should be at the top of the list and make the most sense to get a second opinion and if they did sticker they can maybe sell for what an NGC or PCGS slabbed coin would sell for. To single out just NGC and PCGS sounds to me like they just wanna go for most of the market where the money is. The fees are a bit steep as well. $20 bux a coin for each coin valued upto $5k and you have to wait 30 days.

[EZ_E]

If CAC thinks that they will be superior to the established grading services, they should get into the slab business. Then they will be putting their money where their mouth is.

 

 

 

 

 

ditto. Also ive read there main purpose is to "clean" up the coin industry. If they really did want to do that, why just sticker NGC and PCGS slabbs only? Wouldnt you think that it would make even more sense to add SEGS, PCI, ANACS, ICG ect ect ? Those are the graders that should be at the top of the list and make the most sense to get a second opinion and if they did sticker they can maybe sell for what an NGC or PCGS slabbed coin would sell for. To single out just NGC and PCGS sounds to me like they just wanna go for most of the market where the money is. The fees are a bit steep as well. $20 bux a coin for each coin valued upto $5k and you have to wait 30 days.

 

Very well stated, you two! I especially agree that slabs should not be excluded. Why is this? Is it because the CAC does not trust their grading skills and have nothing to loose by blessing an already slabbed PCGS or NGC coin? Is there any type of guarantee offered?

 

I personally think that the CAC will do more harm than good to numismatics.

 

We've already seen how e-bay hawkers are using hype to try to lure the unsuspecting into paying multiples of bid for a common Mercury dime.

 

Since the CAC sticker is the same for both "solid for the grade" and "PQ, high-end for the grade" coins, a huge margin for abuse is opened here to unscrupulous sellers. I will often pay PQ money for a PQ, high-end coin. I would not appreciate paying PQ+ money for a coin that is just solid for the grade. It would be like double jeopardy like the grading services have made it for 1916 D Mercs. ALL circulated Mercs that I have seen in slabs are overgraded in the Good to VeryFine ranges. So, for a buyer to have peace of mind that his key is genuine, usually he must pay very PQ money for an overgraded piece.

 

I think the fees are unreasonable, too. After all, all grading services provide the same service as the CAC proposes yet go through the expense of slabbing the coin as well.

 

Keeping a coin valued under $5K for 30 days seems a bit unreasonable to me, although they do not necessary differ with the various TPGS's in this regard.

 

In conclusion, I think that in theory, the CAC is a very good thing but in practicality, it is something else entirely.

[djdilliodon]

If CAC thinks that they will be superior to the established grading services, they should get into the slab business. Then they will be putting their money where their mouth is.

 

 

 

 

 

ditto. Also ive read there main purpose is to "clean" up the coin industry. If they really did want to do that, why just sticker NGC and PCGS slabbs only? Wouldnt you think that it would make even more sense to add SEGS, PCI, ANACS, ICG ect ect ? Those are the graders that should be at the top of the list and make the most sense to get a second opinion and if they did sticker they can maybe sell for what an NGC or PCGS slabbed coin would sell for. To single out just NGC and PCGS sounds to me like they just wanna go for most of the market where the money is. The fees are a bit steep as well. $20 bux a coin for each coin valued upto $5k and you have to wait 30 days.

 

 

 

Keeping a coin valued under $5K for 30 days seems a bit unreasonable to me, although they do not necessary differ with the various TPGS's in this regard.

 

 

Its not just a coin its all coins. If you send in 30 coins that are valued at say 4500 combined guess what ? $20 bux each! The only way i can see even someone considering to use this service is if the coins will trade at a profit to make it worth submitting in the first place. For example you have a franklin proof that realizes an average of $300 at auction. If it is now stickered and will trade at say $450 instead of $300 then i can see this taking off mighty fast. If it trades at a few bux higher or the same or less this will be a thing of the past very soon.

[CTcollector1]

I have to admit that I am surprised by all the negative opinions.

 

In my OPINION, the hobby took a real bad turn about 5 years ago when the TPG's significantly liberalized their standards in an effort to entice more submissions of previously graded coins. After all, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the pool of available coins for potential submission to TPG's is finite. So why not entice the same coin to be graded a half dozen times and why not expand the boundaries of acceptable toning . The loosening of standards achieved its main goal of increasing revenue to the TPG's, but the unfortunate consequence was to "bless", as market acceptable, doctored, over graded and color enhanced coins. The result was a windfall to the unscrupulous elements of the hobby, mostly to the detriment of honest collectors. Many good people have left the hobby as a result.

 

Yes, it would be nice for it to be like the old days, but those days are long gone. There is a reason why PCGS is nukeing every thread that comes out about CAC. I'll leave it at that.

 

 

 

 

 

[Architecht]

It's interesting. It kind of just amounts to a more granular grading scale, doesn't it? Sort of a:

 

65.3

65.6

65.9

 

Sort of establishing thirds in the grade, doesn't it?

[TomB]

It's interesting. It kind of just amounts to a more granular grading scale, doesn't it? Sort of a:

 

65.3

65.6

65.9

 

Sort of establishing thirds in the grade, doesn't it?

Arch, you hit the nail nearly on the head as far as one of my concerns regarding the CAC.

[Tradedollarnut]

It's interesting. It kind of just amounts to a more granular grading scale, doesn't it? Sort of a:

 

65.3

65.6

65.9

 

Sort of establishing thirds in the grade, doesn't it?

 

IMO, no. More like establishing ranges of acceptable and unacceptable for the grade. Something like

 

64.7 - 65.1 [no sticker]

65.0 - 65.9 [sticker]

 

Granted, there's a bit of an overlap in the grey area... but everything 65.2 and up should receive the same sticker.

[TomB]

TDN, you no doubt know substantially more about the CAC than I do, but your comment that all coins from 65.0-65.9 should receive a sticker is not only contradictory to what the informal CAC representative posted in the now-deleted PCGS theads, but also runs contradictory to the CAC website-

Now there's an easy way to identify premium quality coins within any particular grade

The bolding of text was added by me for emphasis. The CAC is dedicated to identifying premium quality coins within a grade. This is not the same as identifying appropriately graded coins within a grade. This was, in fact, my main concern with the CAC at Coinfest in that several coins were clearly not premium quality, in my opinion, yet received the CAC sticker. I would expect that anything from 65.0 to 65.2 would be low-end, anything between 65.2 and 65.7 would be average and anything from 65.7 and below 66.0 would be high end.

[Tradedollarnut]

According to JA, these days solid for the grade *IS* 'premium quality'. He stated that the crackout artists routinely resubmit anything solid for the grade until only dreck is in holders.

 

Not exactly how I would state it, but he does have a point. CAC is stickering solid for the grade and up with the same sticker [unless the coin is a lock upgrade ... which right now is running 4 out of 1,000].

[TomB]

According to JA, these days solid for the grade *IS* 'premium quality'. He stated that the crackout artists routinely resubmit anything solid for the grade until only dreck is in holders.

 

Not exactly how I would state it, but he does have a point. CAC is stickering solid for the grade and up with the same sticker [unless the coin is a lock upgrade ... which right now is running 4 out of 1,000].

Your interpretation of the CAC paradigm, as stated above, then matches much more closely my informal and very small sampling conducted at Coinfest. However, I must admit that this definition of "appropriately graded" or "solid for the grade" as being equivalent to "premium quality" is likely not the one that most folks would think of when they compare the terms.

[kryptonitecomics]

So if it's a lock upgrade......what are they doing???

[CTcollector1]

According to JA, these days solid for the grade *IS* 'premium quality'. He stated that the crackout artists routinely resubmit anything solid for the grade until only dreck is in holders.

 

I have to agree with JA.

 

In the past, you would be able to take solid for the grade for granted. Today it is the exception.

[Houston Investor]

If you can grade coins and know how to pick out nice coins with good eye appeal, why in the world do you feel you need to pay money to CAC that a coin is solid for the grade? Where do you make the assumption their grading skills are better than the graders at the TPG's anyhow?

 

 

[EZ_E]

If you can grade coins and know how to pick out nice coins with good eye appeal, why in the world do you feel you need to pay money to CAC that a coin is solid for the grade? Where do you make the assumption their grading skills are better than the graders at the TPG's anyhow?

 

 

I agree! (thumbs u

[rbrown4]

Originally I was not opposed to the CAC concept more or less, realizing that it would possible be a benifit for certain collectors and/or coins But now that I see some of the reality of the service I am very confused and doubtful regarding the overall benefit or purpose. I tend to always keep an open mind, regardless of whether it affects me personally or others in this hobby, but now that there is "public information" out there, I am much more hesitant and concerned.

 

Just my opionions.

 

Rey

[Conder101]

In the past, you would be able to take solid for the grade for granted. Today it is the exception.

Sounds to me like an indictment, or admission, of the failure of the slabbing concept. Slabbing was supposed to protect from overgrading, now it has come to mean that if it is slabbed at a particular grade that it is most likely overgraded.at least a half grade.

[just-john]

Saw this coming when the TPG's found that people would send coins directly from the mint

and pay the 20 when 99%grade ms69 and that they new they were golden and we went from quality to quantity.Now what do you guess the time lime is on CAC cutting out the middle man and doing it all ?

Now when a price war starts you will know the end is near.

Still think this will all play out like that DR Seuss story Sneetches until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew

whether this one was that one or that one was this one

or which one was what one... or what one was who."