Dave Bowers: Blue Indians A Good Value

[MarkFeld]

I think the point is that the Heritage quote says nothing about "blue" and that the thread title is misleading in that respect.

Agreed.

Then are we to take it you are not going to make the call?

I do not plan to call Heritage about this.

 

Greg used a thread title which, based upon the Heritage quote he provided, was inaccurate and/or misleading. A couple of us have since taken issue with it and I don't want to take up Heritage's time to try to settle the debate.

[truthteller]

I think the point is that the Heritage quote says nothing about "blue" and that the thread title is misleading in that respect.

Agreed.

Then are we to take it you are not going to make the call?

I do not plan to call Heritage about this.

 

Greg used a thread title which, based upon the Heritage quote he provided, was inaccurate and/or misleading. A couple of us have since taken issue with it and I don't want to take up Heritage's time to try to settle the debate.

 

 

Agreed!

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

Greg used a thread title which, based upon the Heritage quote he provided, was inaccurate and/or misleading.

 

I believe you left out the word "potentially". As no one seems to know what Bowers meant, you cannot say it was actually inaccurate.

 

I'm going to contact Bowers and see if I can get some clarification.

 

 

[IGWT]

Greg used a thread title which, based upon the Heritage quote he provided, was inaccurate and/or misleading.

 

I believe you left out the word "potentially". As no one seems to know what Bowers meant, you cannot say it was actually inaccurate.

 

I'm going to contact Bowers and see if I can get some clarification.

 

If he responds, and if it turns out that he was referring to blue IHCs, please ask him if he distinguishes between copper that toned blue naturally and copper that turned blue as a result of treatment with MS70.

[truthteller]

Greg used a thread title which, based upon the Heritage quote he provided, was inaccurate and/or misleading.

 

I believe you left out the word "potentially". As no one seems to know what Bowers meant, you cannot say it was actually inaccurate.

 

I'm going to contact Bowers and see if I can get some clarification.

 

If he responds, and if it turns out that he was referring to blue IHCs, please ask him if he distinguishes between copper that toned blue naturally and copper that turned blue as a result of treatment with MS70.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MikeInFL]

If he responds, and if it turns out that he was referring to blue IHCs, please ask him if he distinguishes between copper that toned blue naturally and copper that turned blue as a result of treatment with MS70.

 

[gmarguli]

If he responds, and if it turns out that he was referring to blue IHCs, please ask him if he distinguishes between copper that toned blue naturally and copper that turned blue as a result of treatment with MS70.

 

 

I was laughing too. To think, there are some people out there that still think there is a difference!

[MikeInFL]

Why don't you ask Mr. Bowers if he thinks there's a difference between an original tissue-toned blue IHC and one of your MS-70 creations? Please report back what he says. Thank you...Mike

[gmarguli]

Why don't you ask Mr. Bowers if he thinks there's a difference between an original tissue-toned blue IHC and one of your MS-70 creations? Please report back what he says. Thank you...Mike

 

Tissue toned.

[MarkFeld]

Why don't you ask Mr. Bowers if he thinks there's a difference between an original tissue-toned blue IHC and one of your MS-70 creations? Please report back what he says. Thank you...Mike

 

Tissue toned.

Greg, based upon the above and comments you have made in other threads, you apparently don't (want to) believe that there are any "original" blue colored "tissue toned" Proof Indian cents.

 

Over the years, I have seen a number of original matched proof sets from the mid-1800's through the early 1900's, which had been tucked away/off the market for decades, with each item wrapped in tissue paper in its own envelope. I believe that a number of the cents displayed some blue patina and that the color was far more likely to have resulted from the tissue paper than any other source.

[IGWT]

If he responds, and if it turns out that he was referring to blue IHCs, please ask him if he distinguishes between copper that toned blue naturally and copper that turned blue as a result of treatment with MS70.

 

 

I was laughing too. To think, there are some people out there that still think there is a difference!

 

Are you laughing at yourself? You acknowledged and described the differences in this thread as follows (which, by the way, I found very helpful):

 

 

One thing that is usually a dead giveaway about a coin being MS70ed is that there are certain areas of the coin where the color has a "pooling look" to it. On Indians, it is very common to see this on the ear, area between ear and hair on both sides, eye, denticles, and crevices of the wreath. These aren't the only areas and not all will have it, but it is very common.

 

Based on the picture, it's hard to tell how much skin is on the coin. Is little to none, then clearly MS70ed. If a lot, them it might be natural or it might be an old cleaning that caused the color and it has skinned over since then.

 

However, based on the vibrant looking color in the denticles, I strongly suspect that the coin has been worked. Still a nice looking coin! Honestly, most "natural" blue Indians don't look that great. They're a little dull.

[gmarguli]

Why don't you ask Mr. Bowers if he thinks there's a difference between an original tissue-toned blue IHC and one of your MS-70 creations? Please report back what he says. Thank you...Mike

 

Tissue toned.

Greg, based upon the above and comments you have made in other threads, you apparently don't (want to) believe that there are any "original" blue colored "tissue toned" Proof Indian cents.

 

Over the years, I have seen a number of original matched proof sets from the mid-1800's through the early 1900's, which had been tucked away/off the market for decades, with each item wrapped in tissue paper in its own envelope. I believe that a number of the cents displayed some blue patina and that the color was far more likely to have resulted from the tissue paper than any other source.

 

Chemicals in a tissue. Chemicals in a cardboard album. Chemicals in a bottle. What's the common theme there? Toning is toning no matter how it got there. But let's not go there as we won't agree.

 

I believe that there are some naturally blue copper coins. I know there are. I've purchased US (double) mint sets where the seal had not been broken and the cents were toned blue. I also believe that a VAST MAJORITY of the blue coppers on the market are the result of various chemicals. I'm also smart enough to have some common sense about many of the vibrant ones. If people would actually THINK about what the coin SHOULD look like, then they would understand the alterations that have taken place on all levels. People just accept because they want to accept.

 

I just get a kick out of the tissue toned stories to explain so many of them. It's not personal. I also get a kick out of a lot of stories to explain a lot of things in numismatics. The stories must be true because everyone knows them - even the guy who created the story. Even after the stories are known to be fake and the coins known to be fake, they still persist. We see it time and time again. People make excuses for illogical happenings and the public buys it because they want to believe.

[MarkFeld]

Why don't you ask Mr. Bowers if he thinks there's a difference between an original tissue-toned blue IHC and one of your MS-70 creations? Please report back what he says. Thank you...Mike

 

Tissue toned.

Greg, based upon the above and comments you have made in other threads, you apparently don't (want to) believe that there are any "original" blue colored "tissue toned" Proof Indian cents.

 

Over the years, I have seen a number of original matched proof sets from the mid-1800's through the early 1900's, which had been tucked away/off the market for decades, with each item wrapped in tissue paper in its own envelope. I believe that a number of the cents displayed some blue patina and that the color was far more likely to have resulted from the tissue paper than any other source.

 

Chemicals in a tissue. Chemicals in a cardboard album. Chemicals in a bottle. What's the common theme there? Toning is toning no matter how it got there. But let's not go there as we won't agree.

 

I believe that there are some naturally blue copper coins. I know there are. I've purchased US (double) mint sets where the seal had not been broken and the cents were toned blue. I also believe that a VAST MAJORITY of the blue coppers on the market are the result of various chemicals. I'm also smart enough to have some common sense about many of the vibrant ones. If people would actually THINK about what the coin SHOULD look like, then they would understand the alterations that have taken place on all levels. People just accept because they want to accept.

 

I just get a kick out of the tissue toned stories to explain so many of them. It's not personal. I also get a kick out of a lot of stories to explain a lot of things in numismatics. The stories must be true because everyone knows them - even the guy who created the story. Even after the stories are known to be fake and the coins known to be fake, they still persist. We see it time and time again. People make excuses for illogical happenings and the public buys it because they want to believe.

That was a reasonable post, but it appears that your use of the was inappropriate with respect to the particular post you responded to.

[MikeInFL]

Why don't you ask Mr. Bowers if he thinks there's a difference between an original tissue-toned blue IHC and one of your MS-70 creations? Please report back what he says. Thank you...Mike

 

Tissue toned.

Greg, based upon the above and comments you have made in other threads, you apparently don't (want to) believe that there are any "original" blue colored "tissue toned" Proof Indian cents.

 

Over the years, I have seen a number of original matched proof sets from the mid-1800's through the early 1900's, which had been tucked away/off the market for decades, with each item wrapped in tissue paper in its own envelope. I believe that a number of the cents displayed some blue patina and that the color was far more likely to have resulted from the tissue paper than any other source.

 

Chemicals in a tissue. Chemicals in a cardboard album. Chemicals in a bottle. What's the common theme there? Toning is toning no matter how it got there. But let's not go there as we won't agree.

 

I believe that there are some naturally blue copper coins. I know there are. I've purchased US (double) mint sets where the seal had not been broken and the cents were toned blue. I also believe that a VAST MAJORITY of the blue coppers on the market are the result of various chemicals. I'm also smart enough to have some common sense about many of the vibrant ones. If people would actually THINK about what the coin SHOULD look like, then they would understand the alterations that have taken place on all levels. People just accept because they want to accept.

 

I just get a kick out of the tissue toned stories to explain so many of them. It's not personal. I also get a kick out of a lot of stories to explain a lot of things in numismatics. The stories must be true because everyone knows them - even the guy who created the story. Even after the stories are known to be fake and the coins known to be fake, they still persist. We see it time and time again. People make excuses for illogical happenings and the public buys it because they want to believe.

 

Greg,

 

Although you don't want to go there (and neither do I as we both know how it will go), please add the highlighted text above to the topics you discuss with Mr. Bowers and report back what he says. Because like EF Hutton, when Dave Bowers speaks, people listen.

 

Thank you...Mike

 

p.s. I chose the tissue-toned IHC as an example of a naturally toned coin precisely because a number of these coins have very strong provenance and exhibit blue coloration (as Mark and you allude to). FWIW, I agree with your diatribe concerning the "stories" and their use by many, but that's not the point.

[EZ_E]

Chemicals in a tissue. Chemicals in a cardboard album. Chemicals in a bottle. What's the common theme there? Toning is toning no matter how it got there. But let's not go there as we won't agree.

 

Actually, Greg, in my experience that is not true. A naturally toned coin over several years is chemically stable. MS70 toned is not.

 

I have an 1898 (formally NGC PR66RB) IHC that was toned blue (assumably with MS70) that, when subjected to a warm water wash, turned a brassy color and removed all previous colors. It was not chemically stable at all. So, if anyone has a blue cent then leave it in the holder and don't mess with it!

[truthteller]

Heat and humidity will affect MS70'd copper in the holder. Give it time. Those solid blue IHC and Lincolns will have some interesting spots and weird colors in a couple of years.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[jom]

Heat and humidity will affect MS70'd copper in the holder. Give it time. Those solid blue IHC and Lincolns will have some interesting spots and weird colors in a couple of years.

 

So? In a couple of years "spots and weird colors" will be all the rage and will go for huge premiums....oh...wait...it's like that now. Uh...never mind.

 

jom

[MikeInFL]

Greg, Any update from your conversation/correspondence with Mr. Bowers? Inquiring minds want to know. ...Mike