What would the collectors market look like without NCLT?

[shirohniichan]

I collect Canadian dollar coins, and a Conder101 pointed out that if I didn't put NCLT in my list of 12 new 2007 dollar coins being hawked by the Royal Canadian Mint, I'd only have one coin left. Instead of spending $650 to collect 11 NCLT, I could spend $1 and get a real dollar coin most Canucks would recognize.

 

What would the US coin market look like? Certainly the US Mint would have fewer items to offer (only mint sets and proof sets of standard issue coins). Teletrade, Heritage, and other dealers who sell lots of commemoratives and other NCLT would have a lot less to show us, n'est-ce pas? Registry action would drop quite a bit, also.

 

How much do you think the breadth of the market would narrow?

[physics-fan3.14]

I get the impression, at least on this site, that NCLT isn't all that important. In fact, it is often derided. However, this sleepy little corner of the coin world is not representative, I feel. When you look through Krause at the pages and pages (reams, in fact) of NCLT, you come to realize that it must be really important to someone, somewhere, and that somebody is making lots of money off of it. I personally don't care one way or the other what happens to the stuff, except for teh fact that the mint is spending all its time working on this junk, and can't put the proper effort into the good stuff.

[JamminJ]

From time to time I wonder who buys all that junk. Guess we know now, huh Shiroh?

 

I think most of it goes to casual collectors or is bought for grandkids. Getting rid of it would likely cut into many dealers overall margins forcing them to make it upsomewhere else, real coins for instance.

[TomB]

NCLT would also include classic US commems, though they were sometimes dumped into circulation if they did not sell and other times were used during economic crisis.

[Zoins]

How much do you think the breadth of the market would narrow?

A lot.

[ibyandsellsmith]

"Could you please explain, NCLT?"

[Zoins]

Could you please explain, NCLT?

NCLT = Non-Circulating Legal Tender. These are generally collector coins used to make money from collectors and are never intended to actually circulate as money. This term originally came about to refer to coins where the bullion value was worth significantly more than the legal tender face value at time of issue, e.g. modern silver/gold commems and modern bullion coins. Think of the Franklin Mint (on behalf of Barbados, Marshall Islands, etc.) and post-1982 US precious metal commems. Over time, people have added more coin categories to this term. Here are some:

 

Bullion Coins: American Eagles, Chinese Pandas, British Britannias, Canadian Maple Leafs, Mexican Libertads, Australian Kookaburas, etc. If you really want to spend these at face value, you can but no one in their right mind without financial hardship normally would, like Commems and Proofs listed below.

 

Commemoratives: Originally post-1982 commems but CCHDs and other pre-modern US commems are now often considered NCLT as mentioned by TomB above. Some, like the Columbian CCHDs, were circulated (dumped) after disappointing collector sales but that was not the intention of their production.

 

Proofs: These are collector coins that began to be made in the 1800s. These share designs with circulating coins. They are not intended for circulated but they can be like commemoratives and other NCLT.

 

Morgans: Some people call Morgan Dollars NCLT because the vast majority of them were made as a concession to the silver lobby through two graft acts. These were made to simply give money to western mining interests, not to fill circulation coinage needs.

 

Sackies, JFKs and other moderns: JFK business strike halves are no longer made for circulation but they are continued to be made for collectors. Many Sackies and Prexy Bux are also considered NCLT by some because the US is making way more than needed for circulation purposes so the vast majority will not circulate.

 

Other: There are some coins that do not fit the above but also never circulated. The 1804 dollar is an example of this kind of NCLT.

 

Basically any coin with a legal tender face value that is made for purposes other than facilitating commerce.

 

Should NCLT be in the Glossary?

[jtryka]

Certainly we wouldn't have any modern silver or gold coins to collect without NCLTs!

[physics-fan3.14]

"Could you please explain, NCLT?"

 

Zoins did a good job of explaining it. I will add, though, that while technically jfks, saccy, pres bucks, and the like are NCLT, when I use the term I mean the proliferation of coins that are not even supposedly meant for circulation. Take for example the issues of the Isle of Man, Liberia, Gibraltar, and other places like that. I don't mind countries that have small commemorative coin programs, but those that just crank out dozens and dozens of different issues just to make money drive me crazy. Like a twelve coin set from somalia for motrocycles or guitars.

[shirohniichan]

NCLT would also include classic US commems, though they were sometimes dumped into circulation if they did not sell and other times were used during economic crisis.

 

One coin that got me interested in collecting was a Monroe-Doctrine half my dad saved from circulation when he was a kid. Finding that in a coffee can along with his other circulation finds (including a corroded 2 cent piece and a bent half dime) fired my 6-year old imagination.

 

From time to time I wonder who buys all that junk. Guess we know now, huh Shiroh?

 

BTW, I'm not buying it any more. For a while I thought it amusing that the RCM cranked out so much stuff, including the same coins in different packages. It's not funny any more.

 

For a while Canada had circulating commemorative dollar coins, but most of their new stuff is meant for collectors and gift buyers.

[michael]

What would the collectors market look like without NCLT?

 

more sane

less spectulative

more a true hobby

less hype

more study, information, learning and collecting

less ms/pr 69 and 70 plastic value

more long term collectors

less greed, guile and peddling/hawking of rare plastic

more FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

less stress

more money wisely collector orientated spent

less money lost by the overall collecting masses

 

 

 

[Keleum]

I never knew Morgan's could be considered NCLT, interesting. Learn something new every day.

 

I'll play devil's advocate here. Mint issued LT, is waning, and while it will never be 0, in another generation it may be awfully close. Modern mints have little (relative to 50 years ago) to do with monetary policy any more, and more to do with national image.

 

I don't see this as bad, just a change.

[Zoins]

I never knew Morgan's could be considered NCLT

This comes up every once in a while and there are differing opinions on this. One of the primary reasons, if not the primary reason, Morgans are very popular among collectors is that many are in uncirculated condition. The reason that many are in uncirculated condition is that many more were produced than needed for circulation. The reason that many more were produced is that they were the result of graft acts, not need to facilitate commerce. So using the transitive property, some people have made the connection that Morgans are popular because many were made not for commerce but as a side effect of giving money to silver mining interests. Without the non-circulating intent behind many Morgans, so many wouldn't be uncirculated, and there wouldn't be as much interest in collecting them.

 

Think about it this way. The vast majority of Morgans that collectors like have never circulated and they weren't intended to circulate when they were made.

[RGT]

I have refered to Morgan's as "classic bullion" before. It didn't go over well with some Morgan collectors.

[Keleum]

So the whole series wouldn't be NCLT, just those minted in the 1890s??

[jtryka]

Although the Morgan may not have circulated, it did serve an important purpose as backing for the issuance of silver certificates. Because a silver dollar has more silver than 2 halves or 4 quarters or 10 dimes, they were needed to back those $1, $2, $5, $10 and $20 silver certificates. So again using the transitive property, although the coins sat in vaults, their proxies circulated heavily.

 

Today is a different story. You don't need so much brass and manganese in the form of Sacs and Prezzies to issue $1 bills, the Fed can issue as many as they want so long as the don't run out of green ink and cotton-linen paper. So in one sense, these new dollars are like morgans, they will sit in vaults and rarely circulate, but unlike the Morgans, these new token have no practical purpose (outside of Equador).

[shirohniichan]

Although the Morgan may not have circulated, it did serve an important purpose as backing for the issuance of silver certificates. Because a silver dollar has more silver than 2 halves or 4 quarters or 10 dimes, they were needed to back those $1, $2, $5, $10 and $20 silver certificates. So again using the transitive property, although the coins sat in vaults, their proxies circulated heavily.

 

Today is a different story. You don't need so much brass and manganese in the form of Sacs and Prezzies to issue $1 bills, the Fed can issue as many as they want so long as the don't run out of green ink and cotton-linen paper. So in one sense, these new dollars are like morgans, they will sit in vaults and rarely circulate, but unlike the Morgans, these new token have no practical purpose (outside of Equador).

 

Good point! And thanks for remembering Equador so someone doesn't shoot back that the 2001 Sackies are circulating there.

[cladking]

Although the Morgan may not have circulated, it did serve an important purpose as backing for the issuance of silver certificates. Because a silver dollar has more silver than 2 halves or 4 quarters or 10 dimes, they were needed to back those $1, $2, $5, $10 and $20 silver certificates. So again using the transitive property, although the coins sat in vaults, their proxies circulated heavily.

 

Today is a different story. You don't need so much brass and manganese in the form of Sacs and Prezzies to issue $1 bills, the Fed can issue as many as they want so long as the don't run out of green ink and cotton-linen paper. So in one sense, these new dollars are like morgans, they will sit in vaults and rarely circulate, but unlike the Morgans, these new token have no practical purpose (outside of Equador).

 

Most of the currency was backed by "one dollar in silver" rather than "one silver dollar". The government would dare people to claim their silver dollar. Even when these were redeemed for silver, it's a safe bet most were perfectly happy with fractional coins. Through the middle of the 19th century most backing for paper was in the form of half dollars.

 

One should also keep in mind that silver bottomed out at 28c per ounce. This means the last silver dollars actually had less backing of metal than a clad Ike dollar!

 

 

[jtryka]

According to the Coinage Act of 1878 (the Bland-Allison Act):

 

"...That any holder of the coin authorized in this act [i.e. silver dollars containing 371.25 rains of fine silver] may deposit the same with the Treasurer in sums not less than ten dollars each... the coin deposited for or representing the certificates shall be retained in the Treasury for the payment of the same on demand. Said certificates shall be receivable for customs, taxes, and public dues, and, when so received, may be reissued.”

 

You are correct on later silver certs which were "One Dollar in Silver Payable to the Bearer on Demand" but all the earlier issues specified "One Silver Dollar Payable to the Bearer on Demand." And of course the latter certs were all issued during the time of the Morgan dollar which is the original topic we were discussing.

[supertooth]

Hello Folks----- While I absolutely agree that millions upon millions of Morgan dollars did indeed sit in our nations banks etc.---never to be circulated in a normal economy---- I must beg to differ with those who may think that the Morgan dollar never circulated in our normal everyday purchases.

 

Being an older guy, I was there collecting these coins out of change in the late 1950's. And, I can remember countless times seeing them in cash registers----and requesting them to be given to me in change.

 

My grandfather tended bar in his retirement. There were always Morgan and Peace dollars in the till. The owner of the bar collected them---as did I. My grandfather would purposely put them aside for the owner----and I got some too.

 

While I will admit that they were not as common as the other denominations, they were certainly there----AND USED

 

As additional evidence of my point---look at the great number of Morgans and Peace dollars that are offered daily on Ebay----that ARE NOT uncirculated coins. Those coins were out there in the economy---used in everyday normal commercial transactions. I doubt that anyone could total the total number of these coins---but they were certainly in the millions. I personally had well into the hundreds of them---gotten from all kinds of sources---traded dollar for dollar in everyday transactions. I would think that there were many others like myself out there at that time---doing exactly as I was doing. Bob [supertooth]