I'm beginning to get a headache reading PCGS coin threads.

[truthteller]

I was reading several interesting coin topics over at PCGS boards. Suddenly, I realized the threads start becoming twisted, noncontinuous, people referring to statements that don't exist. Then, I realized the moderators are editing posts all over the threads. Rather like watching a movie with pieces of it missing. Who did what to whom and when?

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

I was reading several interesting coin topics over at PCGS boards. Suddenly, I realized the threads start becoming twisted, noncontinuous, people referring to statements that don't exist. Then, I realized the moderators are editing posts all over the threads.

 

No, that's just the way many of the people over there talk.

 

I've been watching for a little while. I haven't noticed any editing other than removing the David Hitler post and those jadecoin threads.

 

It would be pretty sad if they spend their evening editing posts.

[DirtyGoldMan]

There have been some recent threads across the thread in which OT insulting posts were selectively deleted within a thread.

 

RYK

[BillJones]

I get tired of reading the posts over there by those who are constantly beating their own drums for grossly overpriced modern coins in PCGS slabs. I think that the Jade coin case showed us how well PCGS backs up its liability for their mistakes. It just shows you how much you are out on a limb when you accept their grade and pay thousands of dollars more of ONE grading point. When you buy one of those coins, you are on your own, baby. The guarantees really don't mean that much.

 

Back in the '50s Walter Breen wrote about "collectors trash" like commemoratives. I'm sure that he was talking about series like the Booker T. Washington and Washington-Carver half dollars, which is issued for FAR longer than they should have been. Back then the issue price for these items was something like $7.50 to $10.00 for a three peice set of the coins (Something like $60 or $100 in today's dollars.) If only he could see what people are paying today for 1940, 1953 and 1954 cents, which have been saved by roll. "Trash" might not be a strong enough term.

[cladking]

I get tired of reading the posts over there by those who are constantly beating their own drums for grossly overpriced modern coins in PCGS slabs. I think that the Jade coin case showed us how well PCGS backs up its liability for their mistakes. It just shows you how much you are out on a limb when you accept their grade and pay thousands of dollars more of ONE grading point. When you buy one of those coins, you are on your own, baby. The guarantees really don't mean that much.

 

Back in the '50s Walter Breen wrote about "collectors trash" like commemoratives. I'm sure that he was talking about series like the Booker T. Washington and Washington-Carver half dollars, which is issued for FAR longer than they should have been. Back then the issue price for these items was something like $7.50 to $10.00 for a three peice set of the coins (Something like $60 or $100 in today's dollars.) If only he could see what people are paying today for 1940, 1953 and 1954 cents, which have been saved by roll. "Trash" might not be a strong enough term.

 

Have you ever noticed how every time someone loses a lot of money on some classic that it starts a whole new round of modern bashing? There is a lot of convoluted logic to get from a doctored and falsely pedigreed coin to "don't buy moderns", but several usually follow the path.

[EVillageProwler]

[!@#%^&^],

 

Agreed. There are overpriced stuff in most any general category, like the sludge ED market. I don't mean the attractive, original ones. Rather, I'm talking about the problem ones without much eye appeal. Even those are bringing good money.

 

And, sure, we can say that FOM's wishful-thinking $100K 2002D Jeff 5C would be overpriced...

 

EVP

 

[gmarguli]

[!@#%^&^],

 

Agreed. There are overpriced stuff in most any general category, like the sludge ED market. I don't mean the attractive, original ones. Rather, I'm talking about the problem ones without much eye appeal. Even those are bringing good money.

 

And, sure, we can say that FOM's wishful-thinking $100K 2002D Jeff 5C would be overpriced...

 

EVP

 

 

What exactly did you call cladking that the censor filtered it out?

 

People lose money in all areas of coins. However, the overall market percentage that is likely at risk is much, much greater on modern coins than classics. Never in this history of coin collecting have people bet so much money on something as small as a piece of plastic and a coin minted by the hundreds of millions or billions.

 

Warning them about this is the fair and right thing to do. It is not bashing them, which I admit does go on a fair amount, but rather educating them. If an informed buyer wants to spend $2,000 on a PF70 state quarter then so be it as long as the buyer is truly informed.

[EVillageProwler]

What exactly did you call cladking that the censor filtered it out?

 

I *just* noticed... I called CladKing by his initials "C" and "K" joined together. It never occurred to me that it would become censored out...

 

Really, I didn't call him by anything other than the ordinary. I'm sure you've all noticed that I'm big on using initials -- like with my own handle.

 

EVP

 

[cladking]

 

People lose money in all areas of coins. However, the overall market percentage that is likely at risk is much, much greater on modern coins than classics. Never in this history of coin collecting have people bet so much money on something as small as a piece of plastic and a coin minted by the hundreds of millions or billions.

 

Warning them about this is the fair and right thing to do. It is not bashing them, which I admit does go on a fair amount, but rather educating them. If an informed buyer wants to spend $2,000 on a PF70 state quarter then so be it as long as the buyer is truly informed.

 

The reason that more of a buyer's money is at risk with moderns is that in a real market drop most coins could return to historical pricing patterns. This would be a huge drop for most high priced moderns. By the same token though it must be remembered that historical pricing patterns were caused by a near total lack of interest in moderns. This no longer pertains so even in a severe retraction there is the distinct possibility that modern prices would hold up quite well. Don't forget too, that the great depression saw the biggest increase in the numbers of collectors ever. People had lots of time because they lost their jobs and coin collecting was a relatively inexpensive diversion from the trials of the time.

 

I certainly agree that newbies do need to be warned about the possible pitfalls in the hobby. Frankly though I'm having too much fun to keep harping on doctored, fake, and problem coins that can cost a newbie so dearly. And there seems little reason to continually point out that these and the many other problems which afflict the classics are rarely seen in moderns.

 

...and God knows there can be no point in suggesting that people who expose themselves to such losses are somehow less intelligent or sane than the rest of people.

 

Coins are fun, and it is this which should be our primary message to newbies and oldies alike. Only after this is understood should we be particularly concerned with anyones advancement or education.

[EVillageProwler]

I certainly agree that newbies do need to be warned about the possible pitfalls in the hobby. Frankly though I'm having too much fun to keep harping on doctored, fake, and problem coins that can cost a newbie so dearly. And there seems little reason to continually point out that these and the many other problems which afflict the classics are rarely seen in moderns.

 

For now, that is one of the best things that moderns have going for them. But, as the money becomes more stratospheric, more and more greed and cleverness will creep in and install fear and trepidation into that segment of the market too.

 

For me, the best thing about the moderns sector is that you can acquire awesome eye appealing specimens for a relatively small sum of money. Take, for example, my 1875S TD. It's an extremely lustrous ChMS, well struck and possessing of extreme eye appeal. I got it for low 4-figures. Imagine how many fantastic moderns at the undergrade MS level I can get instead of that single common date TD? And, my sense of aesthetics isn't trained to care a whit about the distinction between MS66 or MS67FS...

 

EVP

 

[cladking]

 

For now, that is one of the best things that moderns have going for them. But, as the money becomes more stratospheric, more and more greed and cleverness will creep in and install fear and trepidation into that segment of the market too.

 

For me, the best thing about the moderns sector is that you can acquire awesome eye appealing specimens for a relatively small sum of money. Take, for example, my 1875S TD. It's an extremely lustrous ChMS, well struck and possessing of extreme eye appeal. I got it for low 4-figures. Imagine how many fantastic moderns at the undergrade MS level I can get instead of that single common date TD? And, my sense of aesthetics isn't trained to care a whit about the distinction between MS66 or MS67FS...

 

Yes, that much of it is coming to moderns also does play some role in my not mentioning it. Primarily though it's just not necessary because the message is oft repeated. Even if those saying it never point out that these are problems which are almost strictly with classics.

 

For the value of one of the rare classics in high grade one could acquire many hundreds (even thousands) of moderns in the undergrades. It should be remembered though that so much activity could have a dramatic impact on prices of some of these. In many cases there are only several thousand dollars worth of undergrades in existence.

[EVillageProwler]

In many cases there are only several thousand dollars worth of undergrades in existence.

 

Yeah? Where can I get them? I can easily afford to speculate on that kind of amount!

 

(I actually am serious about this!)

 

EVP

 

[Leothelion]

And, sure, we can say that FOM's wishful-thinking $100K 2002D Jeff 5C would be overpriced...

 

I have managed to corral up several mint set 02-D's and they do come nice. I have two markfree examples and my guess is, a long term value would be closer to $95. So far the 2003-D has been a different story.

 

Leo

[cladking]

I really have no idea where one can buy the just missed grades of moderns. I've read here on the boards that people see them at shows but frankly I rarely see any slabbed post-1964 regular issue coins. The market for these is still quite thin. Even the high grade coins usually have only several collectors competing for them. The lower grade coins are much cheaper. I would advise you learn a little about these first because in many cases the undergrade coins are extremely common and exist in slabs only because someone thought the particular coin would go higher. Coins like the '70-D quarter comes very nice and the valuable grade is very high. In other cases there are very few undergrades in existence and some of them out there could be in higher or lower grade slabs. I suspect that there are a few dates which haven't been sent in in large numbers only because of market conditions. Coins which appear in mint sets with a huge premium to total individual coin values get sent in much less than their availability would suggest. This would apply to '95 and '97 dates especially.

 

While mint sets won't give you the best bang for your buck since you'll be buying large numbers of inferior coins which are sometimes widely available they are the sole source for many of the gem moderns. Most of these on the market have not been picked over for gems (except Ikes and halfs and SMS's). One could probably take a position in them relatively more quickly than finding slabbed coins. Do talk to some knowledgeable people like Wondercoin first though, who might be able to find the kind of quantity you're talking about.

 

Also keep in mind that the supply of these sets are extremely price resistent. Raising your bid price will result in little increased supply. It's possible that you'll not be able to find quantities of these either. There are a few dealers who had substantial supplies last time I looked. Though not nearly the sort of quantity that would equal the value of a rare classic in high grade.