Silver Roosies with FB designation

[Dry]

I know that PCGS has started designating Roosies with FB. I have some questions if anyone cares to answer.

 

Is PCGS the only company doing this?

 

How has this designation affected prices on the silvers?

For example: a 19?? roosie grading MS65 was selling for $50 but now a MS65FB is selling for $75. Adversely, a plain MS65 is now selling for $25. Any of this happening?

 

 

Anybody wanna guess the percentage of MS65-67 grades currently in old holders that would cross over to MS65-67FB?

 

Will this FB designation change Roosies forever as did the FB on Mercs?

 

Sorry if this topic has already been covered.

[TomB]

Both PCGS and NGC designate Roosevelts with the FB (PCGS) or FT (NGC) designation. I believe PCGS requires the bottom bands to be split while NGC requires not only that but also the top bands to be split and the vertical lines to also be intact. This is similar to my interpretation of how the two grading services give out the FS designation for Jeffersons; NGC is tighter than PCGS on giving it out.

 

As for the rest of your questions, I just don't know.

[gmarguli]

NGC is giving the FT designation. Keeping with their tradition of requiring more than PCGS for the designation, NGC requires both bands and vertical lines on the torch to be fully split without marks.

 

I believe ICG and ANACS are also giving the FB designation, but I'm not positive.

 

From what I have seen (and I don't follow this series too much), the non FB ones are DEAD. The ones with FB aren't exactly hot either. I've sold a few and none really went great. If it is one of the harder dates it will sell fair at best. If it is in high grade, you can move it with a little work. If it is just your average date average grade one, you will sit on that coin forever as no one wants it.

 

I believe the FB designation to be a major flop. I do not think that it will be accepted by the mainstream collectors. The ONLY ones that seem to be going after FB Roosys are registry set collectors and even many of them aren't even bothering.

[jom]

From what I have seen (and I don't follow this series too much), the non FB ones are DEAD.

 

I still firmly believe these designations are a bad thing. Not only do they devaluate the NON-FB coins they make the coin market that much more dependent on the grading services. Which, IMO, is NOT a good thing. My view is very much "out there" but I still think the less designations and less grades the better. Then let the MARKET decide the inbetweens and the premiums for strike and CAM or whatever.

 

Just my opinion....

 

jom

[TomB]

Your view may be "out there", jom, but it is exactly where I am, also! I dislike very much the micro-designations on coins as they only look for approximately 1% of a coin's surface and then designate that surface as to a hazy criteria. It says essentially nothing about the overall strike of the coin. The only good these designations do is that they make some superb, beautiful pieces that do not have the designation available to those of us who could not care about a manufactured rarity.

[jom]

....1% of a coin's surface and then designate that surface as to a hazy criteria ...

 

beautiful pieces that do not have the designation available to those of us who could not care about a manufactured rarity

 

Love that quote about the "manufactured rarity". Too funny.

 

I do not begrudge anyone from collecting FB Mercs or whatever but you can get VERY rare coins (especially the early dates) in non-FB for next to nothing (relatively speaking). Same with non-FH SLQ's etc etc. I mean, you can get real early RARE quarters for less than $2000 in HIGH grade. Absurd.

 

I personally own both a 18-S and 19-S Merc dime in 65 non-FB and they are damn nice coins. I paid a $650 for one and $800 for the other and, IMO, that is a STEAL. Especially considering that the 19-S is the rariest Merc dime in MS or at least it used to be (based on pop report data from PCGS a few years ago).

 

The bottom line really is if a non-"whatever" strike doesn't adversely effect the coin's overall quality then you are getting a STEAL....all else being equal.

 

jom

[TomB]

Thank you, thank you! I'll be here all week!

[Oldtrader3]

I agree with you, Tom. To create minute variety differences, that do not really affect the overall appearance and quality of the coin, is to me an artiface. An artiface created at collector's expense to create more demand for grading company's service. All this has not much to do with these coin's strike and absolutely nothing to do with luster, toning and overall appearance.

 

Since I assembled my (MS66/67) pre-'64 Roosie set some time ago, many of the coins are only partial FB. I guess that makes these MS66/67's into overpriced pocket change? Isn't this hobby just a barrel of laughs sometimes? I can hardly stand the joy of having to spend almost $500 to have these coins reholdered so that they will still be worth almost nothing! This hobby is soooooo much fun that I can hardly stand it!

[sanmary]

I do collect Mercs, and the real joke here is..........I've seen soooo many non FB Mercs with better obverse strikes than FB examples. There theory here is that the highest point of the die (the center bands) would be the last to strike up fully, therefore a coin with full split center bands would be the "best-struck" of the bunch. From my observations this is NOT the case.

[Dry]

"Anybody wanna guess the percentage of MS65-67 grades currently in old holders that would cross over to MS65-67FB?"

 

Okay, I'll go first. 50%

[jom]

Many people also miss out on some of the most subtle rarities. Such as the 16-S which is actually rarer with the lower diagonal band full that it is with the center band. Or the 1920-D (or is it the S ...can't remember) where the "0" in the date is rarer fully stuck than the bands...etc etc. Putting the "FB" on the label makes everyone concentrate on just THAT attribute and potentially ignore other interesting facts.

 

A story: I remember some years ago a dealer friend of mine (who was later unfortunately shot during a robbery of his coin store in NJ) had this great 18-D VERY CLOSE FB dime in a 65 holder. He wanted a big premium at the time. I was a bit of a novice at the time so I passed. The last time I saw him he was argueing on the phone at the Long Beach show with David Hall about this coin because PCGS refused to put it in a FB holder. The market price difference with a non-FB and FB was $2000 vs about $25,000 as I recall. All of that for just a very small piece of metal that just so slightly "unbridges" the gap on the bands. The coin market is some amazing place....isn't it?

 

jom

[TomB]

After he was shot, did the dealer recover or was it a mortal wound? If mortal, and if it occurred in or around 1995 in NJ, then I may have known him.

[cladking]

If you can't buy just the coin then buy them raw. You can have a lot of fun with coins whether they are slabbed or not. If you think that the grading companies are using you just buy them raw. There are still lots of great raw Roosys and one can put together a top grade set. Look for coins that are well struck all over rather than just parts of the design. You'll find that many of the FT coins are full strikes, but obviously there are some which are otherwise inferior coins.

 

Why even get the coins graded if you aren't going to sell them. Not having had them attributed for FT changes nothing about the coin. The strike, luster, and toning are all still the same if they haven't been looked at by the services for strike designations. If you feel you must get them graded then just send in the ones with FT or just the ones with full strike.

 

Some of these coins are extremely tough in FT. If your coins don't measure up in this regard then you can take consolation in the fact that everyone else is having the exact same problem. There's been a huge amount of increased interest in Roosys in the last few months. Its impossible for me to believe that the total value of these isn't up quite a bit.

[jom]

After he was shot, did the dealer recover or was it a mortal wound? If mortal, and if it occurred in or around 1995 in NJ, then I may have known him.

 

Yes, it was. In fact, they caught the guy who did it and he was supposedly on "death row" last I heard. I'm not sure of that however as I'm not from NJ.

 

It's a good bet you did know this dealer....he had been around a long time.

 

jom

[TomB]

I remember him then...it was a damned shame.

[RobertB]

TO ME, AND SORRY PCGS AND NGC, THESE DESIGNATIONS ARE BUT ANOTHER WAY FOR THE GRADERS TO GETNEW AND RE-SUBMISSIONS WHICH MEANS MORE CASH FOR THEM. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AS I FEEL PCGS AND NGC ARE THE BEST SLABBERS AROUND. A NOTE TOO- PICK UP THIS SERIES, THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE DEAL RIGHT NOW. SO DARN CHEAP TO PICK UP A SUPERB BUN SET, ALSO FUN AND RELATIVELY EASY. MS65s ARE A DIME A DOZEN. WHEN THEY DO CHANGE THIS SERIES, WHICH IS INEVITABLY SOON FROM THE QUARTER AND NICKEL AND DOLLAR TRENDS, THE PRICE WILL SKY ROCKET. LOOK AT MERC.'S.

[gmarguli]

TO ME, AND SORRY PCGS AND NGC, THESE DESIGNATIONS ARE BUT ANOTHER WAY FOR THE GRADERS TO GETNEW AND RE-SUBMISSIONS WHICH MEANS MORE CASH FOR THEM. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AS I FEEL PCGS AND NGC ARE THE BEST SLABBERS AROUND. A NOTE TOO- PICK UP THIS SERIES, THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE DEAL RIGHT NOW. SO DARN CHEAP TO PICK UP A SUPERB BUN SET, ALSO FUN AND RELATIVELY EASY. MS65s ARE A DIME A DOZEN. WHEN THEY DO CHANGE THIS SERIES, WHICH IS INEVITABLY SOON FROM THE QUARTER AND NICKEL AND DOLLAR TRENDS, THE PRICE WILL SKY ROCKET. LOOK AT MERC.'S.

 

1) YOU ARE SCREAMING WHEN YOU TYPE IN CAPS. We're not deaf. The caps lock is not your friend.

 

2) PCGS made the decision to add FB. Without a doubt it was done to increase submissions. Gut feeling is that DHRC or one of his customers has many that they wanted to charge more for and the FB decision was made.

 

3) NGC and the other services had to follow or be left out. If your competition is doing something like this, you really need to follow or risk being left out. In this case it was better to follow and when the idea fell on its face PCGS gets the blame. NGC and the other services don't take near the abuse over it. If it was a hit they all share the rewards.

 

 

[RobertB]

Sorry, I have this bad habit of hitting caps lock and not looking up until my paragraph is typed and i'm too lazy to re-type it. I agree with your analysis. I certainly understand the business perspective of matching these designations, but I can't help but wonder if the specific item these coins are being designated for should already be included in the net grade. Like theoretically, a MS70 nickel should always have full steps? If not then it cant be more than a 65-69, at best. I'm sure you'd agree with that.

It's all subjective of course. Buy the coin not the holder, right.