hr1704

They don't add the pictures for every coin.  I have a batch where only 1 of 3 had the extra pictures but I selected imaging for the whole set.

This was very helpful information.  I had the same confusion as the OP.  Maybe you could add this to the NGC web page for the imaging service.

Related question:  Why do some certification pages get these extra pictures of the un-encapsulated coin with it and some don't?
Like this: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2906215-002/65/
or this: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2915162-001/58/

After getting brushed off by Heritage, I contacted Great Collections.  According to their web site, the first step for new cosigners is to request a quote on my coins.  So I did that.  It took 5 weeks and a couple of prods but they finally got back to me.  They apologized for the delay and gave me a pretty good shot at valuating my coins.  I understand that they must be very busy.

I think I will go with Great Collections in the future.

@powermad5000  I have sold some non-coins things on ebay but I'm talking 6 or 7 things over 10 years.  I probably wouldn't buy a coin either if the seller didn't have a return policy.  I'm just hesitant of scams there because I've read about so many and everything I've read stated that ebay almost-always favors the buyer in a dispute.  

I tried sending a message to Heritage with pictures of my slabbed coins and a list of about 40 other coins I have.  The response took about a week and was something short like: "We charge 15% seller fee which might be negotiable if they are high-value coins.  Send the coins to us and we will let you know their value".  I responded with some more questions like "can I send pictures instead?", "are there fees associated with the valuation?", "what if the seller fee is not acceptable, are there more fees to send them back?"  That was 6 weeks ago, I haven't heard back yet.  That tells me a lot about dealing with Heritage.

On 3/2/2024 at 7:56 PM, cobymordet said:

So, back to Square 1.  No joy on actual production numbers.  I still think that there are only 10-25 of the gold essais.  HR1704, good luck with selling the coin.

Thanks @cobymordet.  I'm surprised you even got this response.  It doesn't seem totally hopeless to me.  It sounds like they are genuinely interested in getting the information documented and available, it will just take time.

On 12/19/2023 at 4:03 PM, VKurtB said:

I will NEVER ask for conservation. Why? First, the fact that NGC will suggest it if it will help. Second, I don’t submit coins if I can see they need conservation. 

I'm not understanding your passionate opposition to this.  Is it because you conserve yourself?  I had coins with PVC haze and 1 with copper spots.  I don't know for sure if they would have recommended conservation for just haze.  They look much better now and I can't imagine anyone would prefer the haze.

On 12/17/2023 at 12:58 PM, powermad5000 said:

NCS conserves the remaining 29 coins. Of that 29, 16 coins grade the same as they did before conservation but have a better appearance, 10 coins grade higher than before conservation, and 3 grade lower than before conservation.

Thanks @powermad5000!  You not only take the time to write out thorough responses, you also "read between the lines" to understand was was really being asked.  This is what I was really asking.

I'm sure this will be useful to others in the future.  Same goes for MOST of the other seasoned veterans who responded.  

On 12/17/2023 at 2:38 PM, VKurtB said:

Proofs? If not, haze is difficult to see. PVC is a classic “remediation by acetone” fix. I never had a copper spot to consider. 

I had 2 proofs and 1 not.  The not-proof definitely had haze but it wasn't as visible.  I have more now with haze and copper spots.

The one "melter" I have is a proof coin and I used ammonia instead of acetone.  It had the most haze and now it's mirror-like in the fields.  I was amazed how much it changed.  It's one of these:
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/france-10-francs-km-p459-1972-cuid-1129159-duid-1266746
I don't think it's a melter anymore.

On 12/17/2023 at 2:17 PM, VKurtB said:

Hmm. I never considered conservation for copper spots. Should be interesting. 

Yep, copper spots are gone now.

It looks like YOU learned something from ME today.  You're welcome!  

On 12/17/2023 at 2:00 PM, powermad5000 said:

It is just that the OP seems to have an issue with the 4%FMV criteria and that I cannot figure out why there is a beef with it as conservation is an elective procedure. If you don't like the 4%, then don't conserve is where I went in this discussion.

Well it's ALL elective.  Conservation is elective, grading is elective, coin collection is elective.  I think it's our duty as consumers of this service to call them out when something stinks.  4% FMV stinks.  And if I feel it stinks, it makes me want to game their system.  That's were I went in this discussion.

On 12/17/2023 at 1:44 PM, VKurtB said:

I have never once asked for conservation. Twice, NGC has suggested it. They always will, if they think it will help. I’ve had over 400 coins slabbed. Only twice did THEY suggest conservation, I never did. 

I noticed some coins were hazy and had orange spots on them.  I then read about PVC residue and copper spots and conservation.  That's it.

On 12/17/2023 at 1:39 PM, VKurtB said:

I wonder why having a coin conserved even occurred to you. That makes me suspect a problem. 

What? Why?

On 12/17/2023 at 1:07 PM, VKurtB said:

The sad truth is that TO THEM, the vast majority of ALL coins are worth only melt. You need to understand that and act accordingly. This is especially true for nearly ALL gold. 

hmmm... I don't know about that.  I've discovered that if I walk in and show them my slabbed PR64 5 sovereign coin FIRST, I'll get a entirely different response on the rest of my unslabbed coins.

On 12/17/2023 at 12:07 PM, powermad5000 said:

Why there is a difference in the charge for conservation of 4%FMV for an expensive coin versus $25 or $35 or even less for less value coins, I do not know.

OK, here is my official review for NGC conservation:  You did a good job, but something seriously stinks about this 4% FMV charge.

On 12/17/2023 at 12:43 PM, VKurtB said:

You fit right in with the majority of coin people - unethical scammers. 

You're right.  I'm just a beginner and I've already been pushed into the dark side.  I blame NGC... and all the dealers who were quick to tell me all my coins were junk and only worth melt value.

On 12/17/2023 at 10:41 AM, VKurtB said:

If you really can’t bring yourself to play it straight, this works.

NGC is practically incentivizing us to do it.  I'm guessing most already do. It seems like you're a sucker if you don't.  I say go ahead and do it guilt-free.

On 12/17/2023 at 4:56 AM, J P M said:

OK, never clean your coins.

C'mon, no capital letters or exclamation points?  Are you sure you're a seasoned veteran?  I'll bet you only have 30 years of experience - max.

Thanks @powermad5000.  I've seen the term "stabilized surface" before.  Does that mean they just remove the corrosion or do they do something special beyond that?  If so, maybe NGC should add a special mark to the slabs to let people know that this coin could be be resistant to further problems after twenty years?

So we all agree that the price I pay for grading should not be related to the grade given.  Should I also expect that the quality of work done on conservation is the same whether I pay the fixed $35 for < $3k or the 4% FMV, which could be hundreds of dollars?  I'm still not sure how they justify 4% of FMV.  Maybe for liability in case they make it worse?

BTW, I'm waiting for a seasoned veteran to chime in with a single-line post like this:

Quote

NEVER CLEAN YOUR COINS!!!!

Don't let me down!  

On 2/12/2022 at 11:06 AM, VKurtB said:

This. Asking for conservation is a REALLY BAD idea. If NGC thinks it will help a coin, they will suggest it. If they DON’T offer it to you, all the conservation in the world won’t help your coin. Learn to accept that. 

I found this comment doing a search... a very unambiguous statement..

Hypothetical: Let's say I sent in 100 random coins and didn't select conservation and they recommended conservation for 34 coins.  Then I went back in time and submitted those same coins and asked for conservation on all of them.  Would they tell me conservation wouldn't help for 66 of those coins? (and charge me $5 for each assessment?)

I've read other people saying that conservation may not change the grade in many cases. If the conservation doesn't change the grade (can we ever know for sure) but the coin looks better, won't it likely increase the value when selling? 

On 12/16/2023 at 9:48 PM, Sandon said:

Should they overgrade the coin to make its retail list value equivalent to your valuation, so that the person who buys it from you is cheated instead?

I never meant to suggest that the price I pay for the grading should have anything to do with resulting grade.  I think we all agree on that.

On 12/16/2023 at 9:48 PM, Sandon said:

Unless your coins clearly have some sort of residue or surface contaminants that, unlike corrosion or damage, could possibly be removed through "conservation", I would not submit them with a request for NCS Conservation. "If NCS believes that conservation will not benefit a coin submitted . . ., it will be transferred to NGC for grading and a $5 per coin NCS evaluation fee will apply." NCS Conservation Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com).

My coins clearly did have a residue.  One had a couple copper spots on the back. 

NCS must have believed that conservation would benefit the coin.  Either that or they just conserve everything to make an extra buck.

I think they did a good job.  They look much better now and I would believe it increased the grade, but I'll never know for sure.  But I have another one now which had even worse residue.  My dealer says it's just a melter and told me to dip it in ammonia.  I did that and it turned out perfectly shiny, like new.  So my question remains: Is there a justification for charging 4% FMV just to dip a coin in acetone/ammonia?  Yes, I know some will be more complicated than others.

I never really cared anyway about paying the extra $40 for Express tier.  Especially now that I know we have noobs possibly botching the grading of coins less than $3k.

What really bothered me was the cost of conservation.  That's a whole 'nuther can of worms for many reasons.  I feel I really got burned on that.  Is there a justification for charging 4% FMV just to dip a coin in acetone?  Yea, I know it probably more involved than that.

I think you need to re-read the post then.  I consider myself correct the entire time.  Although @VKurtB definitely helped me have an appreciation with some of the inner workings and problems at coin grading companies, the takeaways from this are:
1) NGC won't think twice about keeping the money if you over-estimate the value
2) It's better to under-estimate the value and just let them NGC bump it to another tier if necessary
This seems like good advice for beginners and seasoned veterans.

On 12/16/2023 at 1:05 PM, VKurtB said:

Better coins require more experienced and higher paid graders. There are tiers of GRADERS, too.

I didn't know that. 

Maybe coins in a lower tier should be labeled "graded by a less experienced grader".   Yea, somewhere we're losing confidence in the system.

On 12/16/2023 at 1:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Have enough experience and knowledge to NOT overvalue it or undervalue it, and your problem goes away, right?

So only people with X number of years experience and knowledge should be allowed to have coins graded?  Or I could simply estimate low and let NGC bump it up.

On 12/16/2023 at 1:03 PM, VKurtB said:

Simple answer. Ethics. There doesn't need to be a better answer. Be scrupulously ethical in ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING YOU DO, or otherwise, you're a crook.

Fair enough.  However, if I value a coin too high, NGC will happily cheat me.  If I value a coin too low, NGC will bump it up.  I've cheated nobody.