Henri Charriere

["....claims against Boy Scouts now surpass 82,000," The New York Times, Nov. 16, 2020.....bankruptcy. Sad.]

Maybe so, but were they acquired at auction after intense competitive bidding where the buyer's fee alone was expected to fetch a mil or two? Now, here's a business, PCGS, that boasts security chip-embedded slabs with leading-edge NFC technology and we are to believe this TPGS will not spring for a complimentary guest membership with grading credits for certification, encapsulation and a custom-made mahogany display presentation case? Even a routine purchase at Tiffany's merits a trade-marked Robin's egg-blue pull-string pouch and box gift-wrapped and tied with a ribbon at the customer's request. One should expect no less from a concern that bills itself the premier TPGS in the world.

I have no problem buying from on-line pictures. Every Rooster I bought raw involved a judgment call. Now I place my trust in TPGS, implicitly. If I have made any errors, the run-up in gold prices has erased them. My experience, satisfaction and comfort level parallels your own. My only problem right now is general non-availability of upgrades. Other than that, I am fine with the entire process and thus far have not experienced any problems.

N.B.C. (Nice Bell Crack) 😉

[Thank you, gentlemen! My own choice would be the stone money of Yap, but I would imagine there is very little demand for these unwieldy objects, that take two to carry, beyond a money museum like the Smithsonian -- or perhaps Ripley's Believe It Or Not.] 😉

You mean prospective new owner. Who in their right mind would turn down an unprecedented opportunity to engage the Great Zadok, bearer of moot points, on a public forum before a cast of millions? I am sure the same could have been said of that other successful shoe designer, Steven Madden, before he became federal prisoner #49498-054. Or for that matter: A. Alfred Taubman formerly of Sotheby's, #50444-054; Martha Stewart, #55170-054; Leona Helmsley, #15113-054 -- and Tommy Thompson a principal in the recovery of massive amounts of gold from the S.S. Central America, and the shenanigans with investors' funds that earned him a brief stint in stir for contempt. The high and mighty are no different from you or me. They are human, too.

[In the absence of the OP, I wonder if it would be bad form for a spectator to jump in, and say: Back on Track... I do not wish to be presumptuous, but what interested observers would really like to know is what each of the primary combatants here, World Colonial and CladKing (as of late) would offer as an example of a specific coin or coin series he regards as notably undervalued, in the usual ordinary sense of the word as reflected in the earliest posts on this thread.]

Here we go again with market-vs technical-grading, a questionable two-point bump, and the coup de grace: goughing... deep gouging. Fast-forwarding to the future, am I to believe a bona-fide collector twenty years from now will accept a loose coin, certified but unencapsulated, without further inquiry or examination? The members here would hound him off the Forum, but not before suggesting he get it re-certified and encapsulated, unique or not.

I respectfully disagree. I feel like Henry Fonda did in "12 Angry Men." Everything I can think of militates squarely against not having this certified. Does "everyone" know what it is? Did "everyone" also know who owned it and where it was kept and under what circumstances? (That knock on the door is VKurtB. He wants to see the coin up close and personally.) The coin has already lost a few points on grading; coins do not get better with age. They stay the same or degrade. Once the chain of custody is broken, all bets are off. Few true collectors are going to buy a coin solely on the strength of a paper. What happened to differing "opinions"? What if it is submitted for cross-grading and declined? Grades matter. Encapsulation is state-of-the-art protection, verification of authenticity, provenance, and state of preservation, attributes that are magnified in importance should this coin, once again, fall into the hands of a non-collector. Foregoing encapsulation requires that the owner attempt preservation of a coin, maintain documentation, the integrity of the receptacle chosen and the environment it is stored in. To me, encapsulation for a coin like this is mandatory and it would be especially helpful if also comes with a special presentation case and document briefly summarizing its history. My personal feeling is the successful bidder will be a speculator. If it is me, I will post the coin on the thread featuring your latest U.S. acquisition, sit back, and enjoy the commentary it evokes: Counterfeit! Definitely a fake! The color looks off. Looks flat. No way that's an MS65! If it were real, you wouldn't be holding it like that. That and $3 will get you on the subway, etc. 😉

[Kojak: We need to get to the bottom of these... CROCKER!!!]

But "low-ball" collectors are a nebulous fraternity. How does one even begin to determine how many there are? There are a lot of coins unaccounted for. What exactly is the "norm"?

I certainly was not aware of this. But the coin is unique, in a sense, right? The only one left that can be lawfully owned? It ought to be encapsulated. Maybe we all ought to take up a collection for the buyer who may very well turn out to be a non-collector. 😂

[Sorry did not respond sooner... been busy. Merely wished to point out one cannot exclude the possibility that products produced by other mints reflect varying degrees of quality control. Have we anything remotely similar to the Royal Mint's "Trial of the Pyx"? For the record, I do not believe in the formal grading of proof coins. But I am open to the possibility other mints produce consistently better products. I will respectfully defer to those who may have investigated this aspect at length and whose knowledge and experience vastly eclipses my own. (It should be noted I have reason to believe those who may know, anecdotally or otherwise, share my feeling that the grading of proof coins, whatever their origin, is a superfluous act to all but those collectors afflicted with the perfection obsession.)

@GoldFinger1969 I have the utmost respect for VKurtB. Imagine the herculean task -- coins purchased in pristine condition directly from Mints, excepted -- of assembling a collection of coins, hand-picked and examined presumably loose and in their raw state, over the course of a lifetime. As you know, I have dozens of Roosters none of which could have been obtained without deviating from this seasoned, veteran member's strict, self-imposed protocol. That, in itself is worthy of consideration for a lifetime achievement award, particularly in this day and age. Adopting this approach means never having to say you're sorry.

Not to rub it in but one of my all-time favorite posts was the one concerning the list of the 100 most influential people in numismatics with members debating the merits of whether this one or that one ought to have been included, a stream of consciousness broken by VKurtB's startlingly direct question: "Is Ratzie33's name on it?" 😂

On the 1909 Lincoln cents, the V.D.B. appeared in raised letters on the reverse side at the bottom. From 1918 on -- with a few exceptions -- they were incused on the bottom of Lincoln's shoulder. Ratzie33, a member, purportedly had a 1943 copper cent, lost it, and has been seeking to recover his potential fortune since in all manner of coins adamantly insisting they are unique, claims other more knowledgeable collectors have dismissed as specious. I think it safe to say your coin is inauthentic -- but I personally like it and if I were you I would hold onto it and when circumstances permit, present it for evaluation at a coin show where second opinions presumably abound. In the meantime, you may wish to consider obtaining a copy of the latest Red Book to familiarize yourself with other aspects of the hobby many generations of collectors have found to be fascinating.

[Sound advice which I believe your average small-time collector fails to appreciate.]

[You may also want to take a look at the Intaglio Mint's product line. I have ordered from them. Completely reliable.]

[Whatever you do, bear in mind that while they may no longer have numismatic value, they are worth their weight in copper content.]

Submitters to one of the top [generally regarded] two TPGS are generally unaware that on one, sending a remittance in "cash" is an option. I took that option reasoning that while they could claim they received the coins, it was highly unlikely they would claim they were unaccompanied by any payment, cash or otherwise. Could a business that routinely handles some of the rarest coins in the world worth millions be trusted to handle a cash transaction? I took that gamble, and won. On eBay, review the reviews and ratings and pay heed to the sound advice, backed by experience, of the members above.

I am saddened to see someone's hopes and dreams dashed or demolished in less than twenty-four hours. Either the OP saved himself a ton of money on grading fees -- anyone care to take a guess as to what the appropriate insurance fee for mailing something like this in for submission would be? -- or shelved a fortune solely on the strength of opinions offered by anonymous viewers using user names. I take a different tack. Before condemnation proceedings proceed any further, I have a few questions. Just curious. To the OP: Can V.D.B. seen under magnification under Lincoln's shoulder on the obverse? To viewers: Was anyone else discomfited by that curl of metal arcing upwards toward the left from the bottom reverse side? And the granddaddy of all questions: why, with millions of common Wheaties readily available to serve as a suitable model for the reverse, would anyone choose one that sports an obliterated S in States and various letters in various states of degradation? The positioning of the 3 in 1943 does not trouble me. It has a ready-made alibi: if what I have been reading on the Forum bears any semblance to reality, this is but yet another hitherto unknown die variety. If these are both counterfeits, they are not bad. I miss the old days when you can walk into any reputable dealer and get a preliminary assessment on the spot. Would any member suggest the OP unceremoniously dispose of his finds? In the spirit of fair play, the heavyweights having weighed in, I believe it only fair we allow our foremost authority and resident expert on all things questionable, Ratzie33, to have the last word on this matter.

[I was a thirteen year old kid in 1964. Like many teenaged boys, we bought blue Whitman coin albums for Indian Head cents (which may have included Flying Eagles, 1856 or 1857 and 1858) 1859 - 1908-s; Lincoln cents, 1909 - 1960's; Buffalo Head nickels, 1913 - 1937; Jefferson Nickels, 1938 - 1960's; Mercury dimes, 1916 - 1945, Roosevelt Dimes, 1946 - 1960's, and so on. Well into my teens, the coins you could collect from change disappeared, the coin albums were shelved uncompleted until I discovered coin shops in Manhattan whereupon I discovered the key coins that had eluded me in my youth. I am 70 now. I don't know what the median age of coin collectors is today but I suspect those older than me who enjoyed collecting in its heyday are few and far between. As far as the reason(s) why they "chose" to leave the hobby, you would have to ask them. I would guess their experience mirrors my own.

I think the safest answer to this question is the simplest one: you could no longer collect coins from change. And instead of judging individual coins on their respective merits, suddenly the term "melt value" was introduced and emphasized so much that it merited a page of its own in the Red Book when bullion value exceeded numismatic value, and the more common dates began to vanish. Coin collecting as we knew it ceased to exist. This had a decisive impact on collectors of [35%] silver war-time nickels, [90%] silver dimes, quarters, halves, dollars (still available at local banks) and copper cents, later on. Now you had no choice but to buy coins. Investors, and scamsters, took notice. The rest is history.

[Great to hear your voice. I thought the recent spate of severe storms had gotten to you. Now, getting back to GF's $64K question -- and your reply -- you still absolutely, positively won't buy an encapsulated coin not in hand, sight unseen beyond a descriptive listing and a well-defined image provided courtesy of the owner?]

Love those emojis. Very appropriate for this thread.