Henri Charriere

This is as pure an example of heresy I happen to agree with as can be found anywhere. But you have an unfair advantage: unconditional immunity.

After reading, and re-reading, every comment made in this thread -- many using language as strong as the Guidelines will allow, I cannot help but be reminded of the reply the Director of the Mint sent a young boy inquiring as to whether the 1943 penny he had in his possession was the real deal. If you substitute that one penny for the coins under discussion here, I believe many of members here, staunch advovates of one view or the other, would echo the the dismissive content and unsympathetic sentiment as expressed in that letter. Unfortunately, there is only one way to settle this debate, but I don't know whether it would be cost-effective or even definitive. There will always be someone who challenges the determination as being just another opinion. 🤔

The Great Zadok stated the gold spot price has no effect on stickered St-Gaudens. I find that hard to believe, stickered or not. Let's wait awhile until a run-up exceeds the $20,000 resistance level. Owners are, admittedly, a conservative lot and not in it for the short haul. I say wait and see what happens. 🐓

As the the judge says in court: "You opened the door, counselor." By exhibiting the coin before a membership of thousands and a world of millions, Idhair unwittingly, or perhaps quite intentionally, invited speculation... 1. If it is counterfeit, why did he buy it? I would also be curious -- I assume he keeps meticulous records -- why and for how much? Maybe he was curious; maybe he was young and inexperienced. Perhaps he had the better one in his possession and wanted to compare the two. 2. During your @Mohawk"s absence, two collectors had vastly different approaches to the obverse side of the silver $20-dollar St. Gaudens I posted: a). @RWB maturely pointed out that the head of the Statue atop the Capitol on the reverse, was facing the wrong way. b). Another member responded by posting an entire thread stating he had never "ignored," a person, but henceforth, would be doing so now. To make matters more interesting, he polled the entire membership asking whether they had ever done so, and why -- and after a decent multi-page interval, took a powder and was never seen or heard from again on this Forum. Mind you, the crime I committed was two-fold: posting a lovely coin without provenance and suggesting @RWB was correct in extolling fluorescent light over incandescent illumination when examining coins which, initially, I was not in favor of. One reader deferentially asked for the name of the offender. [ME]. The courtesy of a polite response by the OP was not extended to him.. Upshot: Idhair -- and by my count, a score of people officially "ignore" me and those who choose not to, simply fail to respond to comments or acknowledge my presence. Listing myself as a follower of someone has irreparably damaged the reputation of many members, so I refrain from doing so. In point of fact -- there is no way to prove this -- simply registering a "like" on a thread posted elsewhere by a member who has "ignored" me here has gotten me permanently banned, over there. There is no discussion; no appeal. You no longer exist. A man deemed civilly dead cannot be resurrected. I have learned all this, however my mentor may feel, by simply paying attention. Will I renew my membership? Absolutely! 🐓

A one word response doesn't cut it. I, or anyone else for that matter, could state otherwise. Put yourself in the contributo'rs shoes, wouldn't you want a single observable indication in support of your conclusion? Of course you would! Whatever the condition -- and expense, I believe the contributor is entitled to a reasonable, courteous explanation as to why his coin does not appear to radiate genuineness. 🐓

@AcesKings I have spent the past half-hour poring over the reverse, probably the finest I have ever seen, and cannot help but award it an MS-70+ grade. The very first of its kind -- and this is prior to formal authentification and certification. Fleeting thought... So proud was the engraver of his handiwork, that he departed from long-standing custom and subtlety etched his SSN unobtrusively on the upper half of the rising sun on the obverse. (Even the footwear is unique.) I double-dare any member, irrespective of experience and supporting documentation, to produce for viewers a finer strike -- strikingly devoid of a hint of a single bag mark, much less wear. 😉

A Quintus Arrius post on a thread thoughtfully provided by @RWB ! Thanks, it doesn't get better than that! 🐓

Gorgeous piece, one's young children can be fascinated with since, try as they might, they can't find any in change. Plus, that's a very respectable grade!

I fail to understand why so-called "milk spots" persist in being an issue on the Forum since the first [primarily silver coin] rolled over the press at Philadelphia two hundred years ago. Where do the all the coin restorers and conservation experts stand on this with their cutting-edge technogy? When's the last time anyone even had the privilege of hearing or reading what the numismatists with experience on this have had the say on the subject since 1937. We know what the composition of milk is and surely no self-respecting silver collector -- or mad scientist whose experiments on suitable examples on these, over time, should I lie able to provide a cure for this rather unremarkable, uncomplicated matter. Why not copper, nickel, gold or those manganese dollars? Why haven't I heard this phenomenon manifest itselfy on foreign coins, or have they? Why haven't chemists been consulted? I am going to stick my neck on on this one and ask a simple question: Is this, more often that not, seen on raw, composite or encapsulated coins? Maybe this is a verboten subject? Knowing this may be a verboten subject and could very well return mutate into a litigious, class action lawsuit. I will quit while I am ahead. I believe there is more to this than meets the eye. And, should I mysteriously disappear one day, don't be afraid to assume these four letter words -- milk & spot -- may have had something to do with it! 😉

Now, wait a minute. Boiling cauldrons are okay for a guy caught with 37 pewter of Fustina the Middle-Ager coins colored appropriately, But what about the young woman caught with one, O-N-E Del Monte double saw buck? She's no felon; in fact, she's rich! The vast majority of counterfeiters, I am sure you will agree, are purveyors of rare old coins and obsolete currency, paintings by the masters, (overlooked by the experts) stuff like books, (which encouraged the notoriously silent Howard Hughes's autobiography (Clifford Irving's labor of love, 1971) to emerge from his penthouse in the desert) and various paintings, which the well-heeled class liked so much they bought it anyway.) Now, if the ordinarily mild-mannered member, Just Bob, token reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper -- and you voice violent objections, the mischievous vapor, Quintus, will swiftly delete vestiges of his caustic commentary immdiately,never to be see again. Let's face it, "overgrading," particularly when endorsed by a major TPG -- to a buyer, represents nothing more than the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, awarded en masse by a group of graders sitting en banc, as judges, with a Finalizer having last word on an assemblage. (To my knowledge, the bad guys had the last word, expressed in moving pictures like "Scorpio" and Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry. 🐓

This is what happens when you arbitrarily put off until tomorrow -- and beyond, what you can do today. Obviously, there is little point in equalling another's record.

Mighty Conder, your long-time record of rattling off generally overlooked and unthought of valid facts --particularly younger mem-bers just tuning in, is a thoughtful consideration as your contributions to the hobby continue to remain unchallenged -- and intact. It is always a pleasure to hear from you and what you have to say. 🐓

Never would have known this. I appreciate the explanation.

UNFATHOMABLE PERSONAL OPINION... THE FORUM IS BUT A MICROCOSM OF THE WORLD I REGARD AS "PERFECT." AT ONE EXTREME ARE THE OLD DINOSAURS LIKE ME (70, AS OF 11:20 THIS MORNING.) AT THE OTHER EXTREME ARE THE YOUNG, IMPRESSIONABLE NUMISMATISTS WHO ARE STILL LEARNING BUT ARE FLEXIBLE BUT NOT SET IN THEIR WAYS. SPRINKLED ABOUT ARE THE IGNORERS, SPECTATORS, LURKERS, LOITERERS AND YOUNG, IMPRESSIONABLE FOLKS WHO ARE FLEXIBLE. IN DEAD CENTER ARE MEMBERS LIKE @Hoghead515 WHO ARE DOWN-TO-EARTH AND AVOID BECOMING EMBROILED IN CONTROVERSY. IT TAKES ALL TYPES TO MAKE A VIBRANT FORUM. (I'd be willing to bet most of us have forgetten why @GoldFinger1969 started this thread in the first place: A laser-like focus on "PRICING TRENDS" on gold coins, such as Saints. BACK ON TRACK!

Academic question, to what do you attributute the dark crescent shapes on either side of the feilds, and the injury best described as a euphemism, MMD, directly behind "Liberty's" head. [Oui, I take judicial notice of the CAC gold sticker.]

Exactly!

@Mohawk There are two variables at play here... One is my overwhelming desire to have authenticated and certified, the absolute lowest graded coin in TPGS history. I overplayed my hand last time and submitted a coin automatically disqualified because I had obliterated the date. My before and after pictures 📸 📷 were ignored. @Lem E's example re-ignited the spark in me as did the coin posted on the Forum bearing the much coveted PO-3 grade (which I feel is beatable, ideally as a PO-1.) Picture the optics of that: pop 1/2317. So, I ❤ the coin, for the wrong reason. Two is reminiscent of Albert B. Fall's from grace during President Harding's tenure as president. He accepted a substantial bribe and was the first Cabinet official) Sec'y of the Interior) to go to federal prison for his acceptance of a bribe (official misconduct) in connection with the Teapot Dome 🫖 scandal, serving one year. (That's a brief summary of the back story you can use... "Well, all I can tell you is my grandpa used to tell me this coin..." Great coin! 👍

My feelings, exactly.

Milk spots? Already? I predict before the year is out a sharp-eyed collector's son or daughter, with a bit more time on his or her hands, will discover an anomaly: "Hey pop, I think there's a distinct difference between the '2021-(P)' and the '2021-(S)' [Emergency Issue] ASE's." Just a feeling I've gotten. It remains to be seen what that may be. 🐓

I can see the lines have been drawn [by the progeny] on pedigree vs provenance. The word I find particularly irksome is "conversate." A Google reference emphasizes "conversate," as opposed to converse, "is a non-standard form, and widely frowned upon in formal writing." I can live with that. And the gentleman I refer to as the Great Zadok gets to keep the honorific I have bestowed upon him without unduly upsetting our resident scholar, RWB. 🐓

"Transportation" to Australia and Devil's Island off Guyana was implemented, and abandoned, long long ago. The Walnut Street Jail in Philadelphia gave way to the "congregate" and "solitary confinement" systems with "legal electrocution," introduced at Auburn State Prison in New Yok after experiments on AC vs DC current. Many jurisdictions have facilities under Federal oversight. Rikers Island is "physical." The Federal BOP is "psychological." @RWB, our lifelong resident scholar has tastefully confined his remarks after only scratching the surface of medieval punishments, which are pursued at length on the web. (The last time I recall the subject was brought up was when a spike-studded "iron maiden" was recovered by the American military in Uday [older son of Saddam] Hussein's backyard when the family deserted Baghdad.

On the bright side, if you want to call it that, was the rise of the penitentiary system as a civilized response to the over thousand offenses, many petty, that routinely resulted in a sentence of death carried out in many torturous ways, e.g., the Rack, the guillotine, hanging, boiling in oil, etc. Oh, and have a nice day! 😉

@rocket23 Hey, rocket guy! EF examples go for that much! The very first coin I bought was from Stack's, in the 1960's. (I know you heard this story before, but...) It was a 1909-S-VDB, BU, shiny brand-new, $200 + tax. Wishing you all the best!

(Having already been cited for "inappropriate humor," I had a great come-back line all ready to use when I recalled I am muzzled for another two months. In the alternative, I am going to suggest the Walloons, and their descendants, will mark the occasion with a either a convention or dinner, much like the D.A.R. do -- without a commemorative coin.) 🐓